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He and his crew were brave explorers. They sailed across the Atlantic Ocean and returned to Europe. His trip’s success emboldened other explorers to sail across the Atlantic. To be the first to do so,thing in recorded history is very brave. He should be honored for his bravery. What is wrong with the destruction of historical figures that are going on today is these historical figures are being held to today’s standards instead of being judged by the morals and era in which they lived. Some historical figures were horrible even to the people in the era they lived.
I don't know what to think anymore either. Today, something, someone, is good; and tomorrow that something, someone, is bad; and the day after tomorrow the same that something, someone, is good again... just back and forth and back and forth. At different times, different people, different generations think, say and act differently.
Yesterday, millions of people thought and said these people, those people, were good, were heroes and admired them, and built statues for them. And then, today, millions of people said these same people, those same people, were bad and mean, and they want to take them down.
What's next? Maybe people will build and praise more bull, tiger, lion, hawk statues everywhere. I prefer dove. LOL
Regardless, we might very well not be here in America today if Columbus didn't stumble upon this continent back when all countries were looking to colonize new lands. But chances are some country would have discovered America with the intent on colonization. It has happened in other parts of the world, so eventually it would have happened here.
After all it is not some small remote island.
So other than the red people who were here before white Europeans, his discovery was beneficial to all present day Americans.
Thus statues (works of art commissioned by people, and sculptors who created them) of Columbus should not be taken down by angry mobs, just because they look at history through a PC lens.
If they are to be removed, then we should vote on it, and place them in an agreed upon location, whether it be a museum of even a persons private land.
Lastly, a simple question. Why today, not yesterday?
If these statues have been around for at least many decades (if not centuries), why all of a sudden must criminal mobs remove them.
Were our generations before not as sensitive or PC as the current generation, or have we become a bunch of petulant immature and intolerant fools that we must tear down things that do not comport with our present day sensibilities.
I remember when the Taliban destroyed those giant Buddhas, many people around the world (mostly non-Buddhist) were aghast.
Yet some of the present day criminals and domestic terrorists of history revel in their destruction every bit as must as the Islamic terrorists did.
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Columbus never made it to the continent. He made it to a few islands.
The "red people"???
Works of art commissioned by people? So you would accept any statue commissioned by any people to be located in city parks and public property? Say the KKK? Or Nazis?
Why today not yesterday? Because culture evolves, as does morality.
Comparing Columbus to the confederates or Nazis does not serve you well.
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Deflection is not a valid debate tactic and only serves to obfuscate one's reasoning ..My position on the issue has absolutely nothing to do with whatever "serves me." You seem to be at a loss when attempting to provide a decent defense of those who have dishonored themselves, and yes, it is a large group of the dishonored who are memorialized with statues.. One needn't "keep score" of the atrocities committed by the rogues gallery of dishonored men from the past, and we don't need to compare their deeds as a tool for vetting our choices of which monuments will be tolerated, or not. No Hitler statues and no Columbus statues, No Robert E Lee monuments, why? Because they all have disgraced themselves by their actions--Not really difficult to understand.
You worded your response in a way that questions the judgement factor in this, you have said that we shouldn't judge the past by today's moral standards, but conveniently left out your full reasoning, instead, you laid it out as an edict, as though anyone not "getting that" is somehow guilty of deficient thinking. Today's understanding of the history of such men as Columbus allows us an opportunity to address the presence of these statues in the realm of modern thought. You want to make this into a political rant against your perceived enemy, the liberal progressive, but plenty of conservatives are also in favor of a rethinking when it comes to who we will memorialize with public funds.
Last edited by jertheber; 07-01-2020 at 11:20 AM..
Deflection is not a valid debate tactic and only serves to obfuscate one's reasoning ..My position on the issue has absolutely nothing to do with whatever "serves me." You seem to be at a loss when attempting to provide a decent defense of those who have dishonored themselves, and yes, it is a large group of the dishonored who are memorialized with statues.. One needn't "keep score" of the atrocities committed by the rogues gallery of dishonored men from the past, and we don't need to compare their deeds as a tool for vetting our choices of which monuments will be tolerated, or not. No Hitler statues and no Columbus statues, No Robert E Lee monuments, why? Because they all have disgraced themselves by their actions--Not really difficult to understand.
You worded your response in a way that questions the judgement factor in this, you have said that we shouldn't judge the past by today's moral standards, but conveniently left out your full reasoning, instead, you laid it out as an edict, as though anyone not "getting that" is somehow guilty of deficient thinking. Today's understanding of the history of such men as Columbus allows us an opportunity to address the presence of these statues in the realm of modern thought. You want to make this into a political rant against your perceived enemy, the liberal progressive, but plenty of conservatives are also in favor of a rethinking when it comes to who we will memorialize with public funds.
Hitler was a disgrace within the era he lived. His crimes were apparent and appalled his contemporaries. Those who fought for the Confederate States each fought for their own reasons and many didn’t have a choice. Conscription (being forced into service) was common. In that era people held greater loyalties to their home state than the nation as a whole. Once the war was over as part of the reconciliation those who fought for the Confederate States were declared to be US veterans. Some of those who’ve had statues in memorial were because of what they did for their communities following the war. Before I would call for such memorials to be removed I would look back at local publications as to why the people of the era wanted to honor this person. There is no great historical figure who is without faults. They’re honored for specific deeds in spite of their flaws.
Hitler was a disgrace within the era he lived. His crimes were apparent and appalled his contemporaries. Those who fought for the Confederate States each fought for their own reasons and many didn’t have a choice. Conscription (being forced into service) was common. In that era people held greater loyalties to their home state than the nation as a whole. Once the war was over as part of the reconciliation those who fought for the Confederate States were declared to be US veterans. Some of those who’ve had statues in memorial were because of what they did for their communities following the war. Before I would call for such memorials to be removed I would look back at local publications as to why the people of the era wanted to honor this person. There is no great historical figure who is without faults. They’re honored for specific deeds in spite of their flaws.
Sorry but your logic is running along the lines of the supposed good deeds of dishonored men serving as testimony to their greatness. Hitler built many beautiful libraries, schools, government buildings and sports arenas. He lifted many Germans from a first world war based poverty, he did some very nice things--But. How many times will you decide to ignore the fact that Columbus, Lee, and other American "heroes" aren't really heroes at all? And, they WERE condemned mightily in their time. Reading any truthful history will quickly allow for a better view of those we have honored in the past.
Hitler was a disgrace within the era he lived. His crimes were apparent and appalled his contemporaries. Those who fought for the Confederate States each fought for their own reasons and many didn’t have a choice. Conscription (being forced into service) was common. In that era people held greater loyalties to their home state than the nation as a whole. Once the war was over as part of the reconciliation those who fought for the Confederate States were declared to be US veterans. Some of those who’ve had statues in memorial were because of what they did for their communities following the war. Before I would call for such memorials to be removed I would look back at local publications as to why the people of the era wanted to honor this person. There is no great historical figure who is without faults. They’re honored for specific deeds in spite of their flaws.
There are two types of Confederate statues/memorials. One is of "Confederate heroes", and in my view, other than at battlefields and history museums where context can be provided, they should be taken down. They were traitors and slave owners...but not just owners but leaders of the slavery cause. And by the way, that is not to say that they may not have had some good traits, as well, but they do not represent suitable heroes.
The other type of statues/memorials I feel differently about. Statues or memorials that simply honor the war dead...I think they should remain. We're talking mostly about every day people with families and descendants. And that is little different than any cemetery marker.
Columbus never made it to the continent. He made it to a few islands.
The "red people"???
Works of art commissioned by people? So you would accept any statue commissioned by any people to be located in city parks and public property? Say the KKK? Or Nazis?
Why today not yesterday? Because culture evolves, as does morality.
So are we acting more or less evolved (than previous generations) by destroying art and public/private property?
Maybe the generations before us knew about Columbus, and didn't feel compelled to act like criminals themselves.
Ever think of that.
Yes, works of art commissioned and paid for with either public and/or private funds. You don't think someone just went to the local Walmart, bought one off the shelf, and put it in the public square all on their own, right?
Money was raised, and paid to an artist/sculptor to create it.
Even using your absurd example, if there was artwork, sculptures, literature, films, etc. in the public domain, it can be removed and/or sold based on the vote of the people, not the destructive desires of the criminal mob.
As to me saying red people, everyone commonly says white people and black people without raising an eyebrow.
Not as common but still as descriptive is to say brown people. There are naturally a few more, such as yellow people and yes, red people.
You might prefer to be PC, calling them hyphenated-Americans, but I doubt you feel that "white people" should be called European-Americans, do you?
Either be consistent or don't be critical, as you do not have the right to tell others how to think, when you yourself are inconsistent in your speech police rules.
I'd also note that keeping or removing Columbus statues has been debated in the past, and in some cases they have been removed, legally.
But the marxist mob does not want to abide by democracy, rather they have the useful idiots to do their dirty work.
All with a antithetical agenda to damage and eventually destroy our constitutional republic. The Columbus issue is just a means to and end with them.
That said, the taking down of statues of Columbus is obviously not occurring by conservatives, rather progressive liberals/leftists. For another poster to deflect by saying conservatives engage in riotous activity as well, I thought should rightly be challenged.
To some extent you are right, since I know American history well, and cannot envision mobs of destructive conservatives doing what the liberals are doing as we type these posts.
Maybe I should start a thread in the P&C to challenger NC Mom.
Regardless, we might very well not be here in America today if Columbus didn't stumble upon this continent back when all countries were looking to colonize new lands. But chances are some country would have discovered America with the intent on colonization. It has happened in other parts of the world, so eventually it would have happened here.
After all it is not some small remote island.
So other than the red people who were here before white Europeans, his discovery was beneficial to all present day Americans.
Thus statues (works of art commissioned by people, and sculptors who created them) of Columbus should not be taken down by angry mobs, just because they look at history through a PC lens.
If they are to be removed, then we should vote on it, and place them in an agreed upon location, whether it be a museum of even a persons private land.
Lastly, a simple question. Why today, not yesterday?
If these statues have been around for at least many decades (if not centuries), why all of a sudden must criminal mobs remove them.
Were our generations before not as sensitive or PC as the current generation, or have we become a bunch of petulant immature and intolerant fools that we must tear down things that do not comport with our present day sensibilities.
I remember when the Taliban destroyed those giant Buddhas, many people around the world (mostly non-Buddhist) were aghast.
Yet some of the present day criminals and domestic terrorists of history revel in their destruction every bit as must as the Islamic terrorists did.
Conservatives are notorious for rioting. In Mississippi in 1962, they rioted at the University of Mississippi, in an attempt to prevent a Black student from enrolling. They burned police and military vehicles, killed two civilians, injured 160 federal agents and 40 national guardsmen and federal soldiers, and left the campus in a shambles. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...SNMPSIQ6mB4GOd
"Conservatives" have burned down entire African American communities and committed unspeakable atrocities in white riots throughout the South. One example:
The Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921, aka The Tulsa Race Riot
.https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/19/o...re-graves.html
I have never understood the mentality of tearing down statues, that are more just historical reminders than some kind of a thing for a group to rally around. Between preserving history and tearing it down, I will always vote for preserving it. And it is crucial for any society to remember history.
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