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Like the above poster, I see climate change around me living in Oregon all the time. Like he has, in my time I've seen growing seasons change with regard to my garden in the last 10 years.
Talking with people who remember what it was like in the mid-20th century makes it even more clear. The easiest and most notable effect is reduced snowpack and increased average temperature, 2 degrees F warmer than the 1950s. We have 20% less snowpack in the Cascades than we did in in the 1950s.
It snows less and rains more in the winter. That makes different kinds of things grow that create fuel for fires when the dry period hits circa July-October, which ignites more easily because it's drier and warmer. That is how we got the enormous fires this year that burned over 1 million acres, burned down several towns, and caused 1/5th of the state population to evacuate their homes.
I fundamentally disagree. When someone wants a major change in how people live, the burden is on them to prove the need for: a) a change; and b) effectuality of the change. Shutting down large chunks of the economy is not a Fourth Grade civics project, such as picking up litter on the school field or in a downtown area. Such a project may be good for teaching purposes. It doesn't really improve the ecology but it gives good training and ultimately hurts no one. Materially increasing people's living costs is another story, as well as funding a Green Fund to address "equity concerns."
Do you think fires burning down affordable homes will decrease people's living costs? Just this year, thousands of homes on the affordable end of the scale in the west coast states were destroyed. It raised my property value. When my home burns down, which I think is guaranteed in the next 20-50 years, it will raise further the value of those remaining, and then I'll be moving wherever jobs are in the areas climate change hasn't affected as much yet & competing for housing there, raising their prices.
As the fires get worse, insurance companies will stop insuring houses. Mortgage companies will stop issuing mortgages, for whole swaths of the map. What do you think the economic impact of that will be?
Yes, there is a cost to climate change mitigation. But do you seriously think climate change has no cost? What do you think the cost of these fires has been? Just the firefighting alone has cost $1 Billion and counting.
I agree the burden is on the advocates of change, and I think they've more than met it. At this point the opponents will never be persuaded. The rest of your case is just diversion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA
As climate change worsens and the billions in damage due to increased frequency and severity of hurricanes, storms, wildfires, flooding and sea inundation, the cost of not doing anything will exceed the cost of switching from fossil fuels to green energy. Every nation on Earth recognizes this by virtue of ratifying the Paris Accord, except for a few oil-producer holdouts like the U.S. and Iran. Even China gets it and has committed to becoming fully carbon neutral by 2060.
Solar and wind power is the cheapest form of energy in the US right now -- and that's without subsidies. Over the long haul the adoption of green energy will decrease the cost of living, not increase it. Nearly all of the automakers are investing billions in electric vehicle technology, not because the government told them to do it, because they know that's where customer demand will be. Ultimately a good portion of the "green new deal" won't be a government program, it'll be the free market doing it on its own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trusso11783
I’m nearly 60 and nothing seems to be different. Hot summers freezing winters. There is climate change but the world has done that since the beginning. Humans barely make a dent. Nothing to see here. And even if we cut out every ounce of pollution, good luck with countries like China, who van give a rats azz if the send billowing smoke into the atmosphere every day. We have no control over that.
I agree with trusso11783. See article from February 14, 1953 New York Times, Blooms and Birds Augur City’s Spring (link):
Quote:
The rose bushes on the lawn border atop the British Building in Rockefeller Center are sprouting new leaves 'way ahead of schedule.
The only thing missing from that article (I will email if you are paywalled and want to read it) is climate alarmism. Additional fun facts from that era:
There were four summers in a row where the temperature exceeded 100° in New York City, 1952-5, similar to New York's string in 2010, 2011 and 2012;
One of the longest and worst heat waves in NYC history ran from late August 1953 into September, with some of the few 100+ September temperatures recorded;
There was almost no snow from a December 1948 dump until the winter of 1955-6, where there was a storm in December and a big one in March; and
Historic 1955 summer heat was broken by two August hurricanes, Connie and Diane to slam into the New York area (may have been down to tropical storms when they hit).
I thought that non-winters, hurricanes and heat waves were the product of "climate change." I also guess Democratic Party rule through January 1953 wasn't blamed. For the record, I am a liberal Democrat.
The world will change its climate. There was an ice age for goodness sakes. How did we go from that to what we have now? Surely wasn’t because of any human intervention. It just happened naturally, just as it does now and always will. When I was a kid, I was hearing how Long Island would be under water by 2000 or so. Well, aside from the beach sand losing a hundred feet or so, everything is pretty much the same. It’s all an excuse to control our environment and, oh yeah, tax businesses and people for their excessive carbon footprint. Anyone who looks to Al friggin Gore and Michael Fat liar Moore for their Astrologist needs is nuttier than they are. Just sit back and watch the climate change. Ain’t nothing you or anyone can do about it.
The world will change its climate. There was an ice age for goodness sakes. How did we go from that to what we have now? Surely wasn’t because of any human intervention. It just happened naturally, just as it does now and always will. When I was a kid, I was hearing how Long Island would be under water by 2000 or so. Well, aside from the beach sand losing a hundred feet or so, everything is pretty much the same. It’s all an excuse to control our environment and, oh yeah, tax businesses and people for their excessive carbon footprint. Anyone who looks to Al friggin Gore and Michael Fat liar Moore for their Astrologist needs is nuttier than they are. Just sit back and watch the climate change. Ain’t nothing you or anyone can do about it.
If you'd like to breathe in the choking smoke from the fires that are a few dozen miles from me, I'll pay your plane ticket.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Lack of action against CO2 emissions is less about the oil industry effecting our thinking and more about no one wanting to give up modern technology to help reduce CO2. I see a lot of pro environment bumper stickers on gas guzzling SUVs. If they won't give up driving why would someone who thinks climate changes is a hoax do so?
Lack of action against CO2 emissions is less about the oil industry effecting our thinking and more about no one wanting to give up modern technology to help reduce CO2. I see a lot of pro environment bumper stickers on gas guzzling SUVs. If they won't give up driving why would someone who thinks climate changes is a hoax do so?
We don't have to give up modern technology. We just need to spend money.
We could take a carbon-capture approach, reforest, work on efficiency, invest in green energy and that would do a lot. Phase out gas guzzling cars and trucks for the future, but no one who currently has one needs to do anything different.
We've spent $7 TRILLION on pandemic-related relief since March. That's a hell of a lot more than we've ever spent on fixing the environment. You can buy a lot for that. Could spend a fraction of that and reforest burned out areas in less than 10 years.
And SUVs get a lot better mileage than they used to.
In this case, we should be utilizing it; in the form of solid state batteries.
These are several years away from mainstream use, but will revolutionize EV's.
There should be a planetary effort to eliminate the combustion engine, have financial incentives etc.
At the very least, this will guarantee a global reduction in ambient air pollution; of which WHO estimates causes over 4 million deaths annually.
Spend exactly whose money? That's the rub, as always.
Everyone's and no one's.
As I said, we have spent $7 Trillion in 7 months on covid and that's just the U.S. As of June it was $15 Trillion from the G10 + China. I can't find any articles at the moment counting the totals since then but it's probably more.
I never thought such a thing was possible before this year. Austerity hawks after 2008 told us if we spent about 1/6th that much it would cause hyperinflation and soveriegn debt crises. Well, we've done much more than that this year and where are the crises? Where is the inflation? There's nothing.
If we can spend that much due to a disease that kills 2% of who it infects, then we can do a lot if we put our minds to it.
In the digital era, money is an infinitelty renewable resource and demand-pull inflation no longer exists. What stops us is the politics. After this year, no one can ever speak to me of a limited money supply or the debt or deficit mattering ever again. The modern monetary theorists have been proven right. Deficit spending does not cause inflation. We can just print the money.
Just $1 Trillion a year directed toward the environment and green technology would have extraordinary effects. We probably wouldn't even need that much to meet Paris Accord targets.
Last edited by redguard57; 10-11-2020 at 12:03 PM..
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