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Was the Declaration of independence a deceptive document for the times. Consider this. The year is 1776 and their is no internet ,no phone, nothing modern. The local meeting places were churches, saloons and schools.
Now with the United Sates being newly minted they need deception to lure folks in. What better than to tell everyone that in America you are free and created equal. Now the founding fathers were deists, not Christian.
If the founding fathers really meant that all men were created equal why did they have slaves? Slavery actually grew in the next 90 years before the civil war. If the words of all men were created equal really meant something they would have implemented it right away, at their own estates. They were all filthy rich. They would all grow even richer.
If the time is 1778 and you are in a saloon drinking and you hear about how great America is and freedom you will have from the ship's captain who is selling passage. Would you go? Then after a long voyage you wind up in the ghetto's of New York.
I say strong evidence exists that the Declaration of Independence was mere propaganda. They needed folks to do the work and needed to give them hope. Truth is some made it, most did not. If all men were created equal really meant anything it would have been implemented right away. We would have had no civil war or any of this mess. Evidence suggests the founding fathers were hypocritical liars. You agree or disagree.
You are dealing with the concept of equal rights. Its a concept that has caused much turmoil among Americans and its one that has never been fully resolved. Alexis de Tocqueville stated that "among democratic peoples the passion for equality is ardent, insatiable, eternal, and invincible." Americans to him, were the first among democratic people.
America could not have been founded without support from people from all thirteen of its colonies. I doubt the southern colonies in 1776 would have agreed to abandon slavery if that was the price of joining the other colonies in their revolution against Britain. So, any hypocrisy involved in allowing slavery to continue to exist was necessary if America was to obtain her independence.
Perhaps, there was deception in the Declaration of Independence. But if so, it was some of the most successful deception in history.
Jefferson, a slaveholder actually flirted with the idea of ending slavery in the early years of his life. Ironically, as he became older he became less sympathetic to that idea. Many speculate its because he knew it would lead to the ruination of his plantation, Monticello. I doubt he was alone in this. Freeing the slaves was attractive to him intellectually because deep down I think he knew slavery was wrong. Yet in practical terms it could not be done because it would mean the end of many fortunes and aristocrats who formed the backbone of intellectual class in eighteenth century America.
Beyond that there is an enormous conflict among most people about what constitutes "equality". Are we talking about equal rights before the law? Are we talking about equality when it comes to opportunities that may be available in America? Are we talking about equality in results?
I have heard slavery referred to as "America's original sin". No doubt our historical legacy of slavery continues to affect our country negatively to this day. I hope, as well as most Americans, that someday we can move past this problem.
In the meantime, America remains a work in progress. To paraphrase the poet Robert Frost, we have promises to keep, promises to keep, and miles to go before we sleep.
I know the Declaration is divinely inspired. As we know Bible scripture is interpreted so many different ways and used to bolster any point of view mankind can think up. So it is with interpreting the Declaration.
The world (and America) in the 1776 did not have significant scientific academy. They knew nothing about the brain or psychiatry nor the function of bodily organs nor that germs existed. There were no railways, automobiles or other means of transportation other than livestock, wagons, hand-drawn carts and ships. There were no factories or machinery (industrialization).
Slavery was not invented in the Americas. It was common on the globe at the time. Spain, Portuguese, France, England, and the Dutch were colonizing all over the world, using the inhabitants as slaves and setting up distribution contracts.
How do you “know” the Declaration of Independence was “divinely inspired?” Did someone tell you that? I want to disabuse you of that notion. It was written by fallible but educated men who had had it with England.
Speaking in religious terms, the American institution of slavery is our original sin, so to speak. It is the stain that is forever on our country’s origins. The reason for its existence was economic. The importation of enslaved people, with its high rate of mortality and inhumane conditions, was immoral then, as it is today. You cannot justify it, or explain it away. You are right that slavery had existed for centuries.
I am not sure what point you were trying to make about science. The modern scientific era was getting started during the time of our country’s independence movement. Did you know there was a vaccine controversy then?
Please know that Washington was a stoic and likely a deist. Jefferson had doubts about the divine inspiration of the scriptures. If you are claiming that our country was founded by devout Christians, you are wrong.
Every document, declaration or philosophy is viewed with different eyes over the years. I’m quite convinced that 100 years down the road people will look at our days and at what we do today, considering us crazy at best.
When judging the Declaration of Independence, it should be viewed in the context of its day. What other/better philosophies existed in 1776 and what nation had a better system? I really don’t know.
How do you “know” the Declaration of Independence was “divinely inspired?” Did someone tell you that? I want to disabuse you of that notion. It was written by fallible but educated men who had had it with England.
Speaking in religious terms, the American institution of slavery is our original sin, so to speak. It is the stain that is forever on our country’s origins. The reason for its existence was economic. The importation of enslaved people, with its high rate of mortality and inhumane conditions, was immoral then, as it is today. You cannot justify it, or explain it away. You are right that slavery had existed for centuries.
I am not sure what point you were trying to make about science. The modern scientific era was getting started during the time of our country’s independence movement. Did you know there was a vaccine controversy then?
Please know that Washington was a stoic and likely a deist. Jefferson had doubts about the divine inspiration of the scriptures. If you are claiming that our country was founded by devout Christians, you are wrong.
Deist are closer to Christians than they are to atheists. I haven't tallied the Christians versus Deists versus 'Other' for the founding fathers, but can tell you the last category would be the least popular. Please provide proof otherwise. Also I give you:
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
So does the fact that Brazil had more slaves than the U.S. also bother you or do they somehow get a pass?
I haven't compared them side-by-side, but I believe the Declaration of Independence's list of complaints is similar in tone and intent as Martin Luther's 95 Theses is against the Catholic church.
The term "nature's God" is a rationalistic conception of G-d based on reason, not revelation. The Faiths of the Founding Fathers by Holmes is a good synopsis. He divides the Founders into three groups, traditional Christians, deists and those who fall into the middle. Modern fundamentalists might not think Jefferson a Christian since he did not believe in Biblical miracles - Jefferson Bible.
The term "nature's God" is a rationalistic conception of G-d based on reason, not revelation. The Faiths of the Founding Fathers by Holmes is a good synopsis. He divides the Founders into three groups, traditional Christians, deists and those who fall into the middle. Modern fundamentalists might not think Jefferson a Christian since he did not believe in Biblical miracles - Jefferson Bible.
It was based on both, but the Hebrew notion (and possibly Zoroastrian) of monotheism predates any of the work done by philosophers using reason. Abraham came before Plato, Socrates and Aristotle and folks like St. Augustine and Philo of Alexandria seeked to fuse the old time religion with Greek philosophy. Also note that God is capitalized and not lower case as it appears in other faiths, which denotes the singular, supreme nature of God.
Last edited by verybadgnome; 01-16-2021 at 07:41 AM..
And yet, our institutions are basically pagan. Religion is authoritarian, not democratic - that is pagan Greek. Jury trials are pagan - ancient Egyptians adjudicated matters in the Kenbet (eight jurors); the Greeks had adopted it in the 6th century B. C. E. Rome then adopted it. King Æthelred (Æthelred the Unready) inherited the tradition. Even the term Senate comes from pagan Rome. Consent of the governed comes from Solon, not Abraham. Were they writing of divine natural law or secular natural law? Alas, we can only surmise until we can ask them when we reach the other side...my guess is I'll get there before most here since I'm old.
In the end, they knew the divisiveness of religious arguments. The English Civil War was not ancient history to them. Hence their appeal to reason, not authority.
And yet, our institutions are basically pagan. Religion is authoritarian, not democratic - that is pagan Greek. Jury trials are pagan - ancient Egyptians adjudicated matters in the Kenbet (eight jurors); the Greeks had adopted it in the 6th century B. C. E. Rome then adopted it. King Æthelred (Æthelred the Unready) inherited the tradition. Even the term Senate comes from pagan Rome. Consent of the governed comes from Solon, not Abraham. Were they writing of divine natural law or secular natural law? Alas, we can only surmise until we can ask them when we reach the other side...my guess is I'll get there before most here since I'm old.
In the end, they knew the divisiveness of religious arguments. The English Civil War was not ancient history to them. Hence their appeal to reason, not authority.
I think you are using the term 'pagan' when 'secular' would be a better choice. Yes, there are a lot of other influences on our founding but that doesn't change the big picture.
John Locke, a christian, had more influence on our republic than anyone you have mentioned so far and he came up with this foundation for the separation of church and state. That a believer came up with this is not a contradiction, but rather knowing there is a time and place for everything.
Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints;
Even if they could, enforcing a single 'true religion' would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence;
Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity.
Deist are closer to Christians than they are to atheists. I haven't tallied the Christians versus Deists versus 'Other' for the founding fathers, but can tell you the last category would be the least popular. Please provide proof otherwise. Also I give you:
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
So does the fact that Brazil had more slaves than the U.S. also bother you or do they somehow get a pass?
I haven't compared them side-by-side, but I believe the Declaration of Independence's list of complaints is similar in tone and intent as Martin Luther's 95 Theses is against the Catholic church.
And I quote “Nature’s God.”
Not sure what Brazil has to do with the writing of the Declaration of Independence. I don’t see your point.
When you do compare Luther’s Theses and the Declaration of Independence, come back and tell us more.
Deists did/do not believe in a God who intervenes in men’s lives, nor would they take Jesus for more than a wise prophet. The educated men of the late 18th Century would have supported churches as stabilizing influences on morality.
My post which you are responding to, was in regards to the thinking that the Declaration of Independence was divinely inspired. That has to be the oddest thing I have ever heard about the Declaration.
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