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What race is that? I agree with a lot of your sentiment re: the drug war being detrimental and disproportionaly impacting black communties. But the comment from your post I highlighted above is what really starts to dig deeper into your apparent victimization/victimizer mentality that I would like to explore further. Would you mind elaborating? Much respect.
My ancestry as verified by a lot of genealogy research is almost entirely British. In my own actual line, there is a branch that was given titles in Ireland, they were British people who were there for the express purpose of oppressing the Irish. Then there is the early American record. There are not big plantation owners, but one of my ancestors did own a slave that we know of from a census record. Moreover, the British have a long history of colonizing and brutalizing indigenous of various continents wherever they could, for quite a while there.
The history of my bloodlines is blood spattered and in places, shameful. Now I don't hate MYSELF for any of this, it would be stupid to beat myself up or put myself down for things I never did...but I am not going to sit here and feel PRIDE in horrible things done to other people. And if I can raise my voice here and there in support and defense of those my ancestors have wronged, maybe I can throw a tiny little bit of good karma into the balance. If simply shutting up and listening to someone about their lived experiences, without making it all about me, is what is called for, I can consciously try to do that, too. All in all, I want to be a KIND person. It matters to me.
And the notion of erasing the history of these things, so that people can be comfortable and wallow in pride and nationalism and ignore the brutality at its foundation, is abhorrent to me. I am an American, and I love my country. But I believe that it is not necessary to have this image of it as "we were always the cowboys in the white hats and our entire history is perfect" in order to love my country. Just as when I love a person, I am not blind to their flaws. I can see it with clear eyes and the areas where we can do better, and put in the work, and it is part of my idea of patriotism.
Now looking at the present... I will likely die in possession of some generational wealth of my husband's family as well as what I have been able to accumulate myself, some of which was from "hard work" but a LOT of which I can more readily credit to luck and good opportunities that life tossed into my path. Pure chance. My sons have been given unbelievable advantages in starting out as young adults, things far beyond what I had any access to when I first was out on my own. One of them will make the most of that. The other one has issues and I really don't even know what will happen with him. He will eventually sink or swim, I imagine. Their father will be leaving them hundreds of thousands in veteran's life insurance when he's gone. Personally? I am very much considering leaving the value of my estate to a worthy organization that helps the disadvantaged, or even just an impoverished family I'm not even related to, and if I could find descendants of the slave that my ancestor had, I would leave it to them. (I have tried, but the records just aren't there.)
It is not self hate, or guilt, that drives that thinking. It is a deep sense of wishing to do right, to push back against wrong.
Why are you blaming millennials? Each generation has its fair share of individuals who believe that their opinions are right and will try to cancel you. Social media is only a problem if used the wrong away. It was originally meant to be a platform to allow people to connect with others from around the world and share ideas. It should never have gotten political in the first place. If you throw that angle away, then social media can be a great place for people to bond.
Maybe ideally it 'should have never gotten political', but it was inevitable that it would. How could it not have, unless any talk at all that was deemed 'related to politics' was banned from the outset? And personally, I'm most apt to bond with people over politics, or life philosophy/ideology more generally, so if you take that away, then any 'bonding' that I'm doing is pretty superficial.
I get repeated sources of 'proof' from people that use NY Times as a credible source. Or the Wash Post, or Snopes, Politico, Vox, Salon, Etc......
Like the old saying goes: "There's your truth, my truth, and the real truth"
People will just keep finding sources that support what they believe.....
Sorry, Woody, but those are all credible sources. Specific editorials (not to be confused with straightforward news stories) within those publications may contain debatable opinions/pronouncements, but they can be assessed on a case-by-case basis. On the aggregate, they're all credible, and I find it disturbing (and indicative of the brainwashing of a certain all-too-large segment of society) that you do not find them credible.
Also, the OP used the word "discussion." We can discuss anything. It's that people have to be open to accepting contrary views and yes, that people have a right to disassociate themselves from those people.
A discussion...
Above, someone brought up Chris Harrison. He is free to believe whatever he wants to believe. Let's discuss. One contestant attended a plantation party. For that contestant, a white person, plantations may not mean anything to her. To her, it's just a big, pretty house and estate. To her fellow Black citizens, that big pretty house is a symbol of racism, pain and suffering. It was that contestant's right to choose to not care about that. Essentially, it's her right to ignore historical racism. That's dismissive of millions of Black Americans, but, again, that's her right.
When Chris Harrison chimed in and defended her, he in turn, was taking the same position she was taking. He was dismissing the racism (historical, symbolic and otherwise) and essentially was saying it was no big deal. He has the right to believe that. Even though this viewpoint is offensive to millions of fellow Americans, again, he has that right to believe whatever he believes.
His employer, a television network that wants viewers from all walks of life, has a right to remove an employee who will harm the network's business, image, and revenue. The network was not trying to silence him or stop his freedom of speech. Chris Harrison is free to say whatever he wants in the public space and the government will not stop him. The network is not the government. Everyday, companies let go of workers who are not working out, are not productive, etc. This is no different.
So, everyone has had their say and all of their rights preserved.
Here is a piece of a conversation with Chris Harrison:
Notice the bold. Just because 50 million people went to plantation parties doesn't make them any less painful for their fellow Black Americans. He's saying that 50 million Americans decided that the pain of millions of other Americans mean nothing to them. It's no big deal. That's what he was saying.
If you say, that was a long time ago and get over it, do we tell Jewish people to get over the Holocaust? Anyone having weddings at Auschwitz? Anyone putting on feather and face paint and partying it up on a reservation? Do we tell the victims of the decades of Catholic priest sexual abuse to just get over it? If you say, racism is over, then...that's a whole other discussion.
What are the counterpoints? Let's discuss.
I'm a lifelong Northerner and hadn't even heard of a 'plantation party' until reading this post, but there is absolutely no way that 50 million people attended plantation parties in 2018. If 50 million people in this country did/do anything in a given year, then I will have heard of that thing--that is my reasoning. According to Wikipedia, 125 million people live in the South (and that includes places like WV and Texas, where 'Southern culture' isn't quite so much a thing), and if you subtract black people, who probably aren't attending in any great number, that would mean around 50% of the white population of the South attended a plantation party in 2018. I could believe 50,000, but not 50,000,000, lol. Also worth noting is that this Chris Harrison guy makes 2018 sound as if it was eons ago, like cultural mores have shifted massively in the past three years. Yeah, not so much. For all the campaigns to remove Confederate statues that have occurred in the past year or two...2018 was not some foreign unimaginable time when 50 million people went to celebrate the antebellum South but could not conceive of doing that now. He obviously may have been intentionally hyperbolizing there, but, even so, pretty ludicrous number to throw out there.
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 03-08-2021 at 02:31 PM..
Our media do not even claim to be neutral. Instead, they run on a business model of identifying a market and presenting news with slants that appeal to the market. They don't even have to tell you what to think. All they have to do is tell you what to think about.
That's not a thought original to me. Read Neil Postman's classic, "Amusing Ourselves to Death," which dissects how the entertainment culture has affected everything.
So how does that break down? If you get all your news from one slant, then you are part of the problem. You aren't interested in nuance. You're interested in being validated.
It's easy to pick on Fox News, NewsMax, and OAN. Those are less news outlets and more propaganda organs, entertainment for mouth breathers. And the covering fire they provided Donald Trump is nothing less than shameful.
But, truthfully, the same is true of the WaPo, MSNBC, CNN, and the NYT. And there are plenty of times when their coverage is even more shameful. Except they consider themselves on the side of righteousness, which means they blush less when they offer up bilge.
I'll give you a pluperfect example. Back in the early days of the pandemic, Governor Andrew Cuomo received all kinds of fawning, obsequious praise from hacks such as Rachel Maddow. Remember those embarrassing interviews Chris Cuomo conducted with his brother? Instead of asking tough questions, they joked on air about the size of Andrew's nose.
Never mind that Covid infection rates and deaths in New York State were soaring due to his boneheaded decision to put Covid patients into nursing homes. Nope, softball coverage. Andrew Cuomo, even after unbelievable carnage in his state, had the stones to publish a self-serving book about his Covid response. And the media swooned once again. Except, as we're now finding out, he was lying to investigators and fudging his numbers big time.
The point of all this? If you get your news from a single ideological slant, you are not being a careful consumer of information. You're just digesting whatever pap they give you and then parroting it at your next dinner party.
The world is not bisected into black and white or good and evil, no matter what your favorite news sources or politicians want you to believe. It is mostly shades of gray. Both sides of the political spectrum make some pretty important points. At the same time, both sides of the political spectrum support some pretty idiotic things. Nevertheless, they sell themselves as the sole sources of truth, and people are stupid enough to believe them.
You as a reflective adult needs to read universally, understanding both points of view, not just what's force fed to you. You should inject nuance into your political views rather than mindlessly support a binary view of the world and its problems.
When you do that, you're less worried about being right and more concerned with discovering truth. Only until we collectively make that shift in attitude, we'll continue with pointless debates where neither side is fully right or fully wrong.
NY (along with NJ) was the first state to experience Covid in all its wrath, as a true crisis. Although Cuomo erred in his nursing home policy, and even moreso when he then lied about nursing home death data, the country as a whole was not prepared for the full extent of Covid-related consequences.
Here in the USA - Will we ever be able to again have open, honest discussions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by migee
Let's face it...if you dissent from the current political positions, you are shut down.
And let's be honest...the current political positions may not be all honest and true. And that statement alone is hard to defend, as any dissent is considered heresy today...and would be shut down with the trendy labels.
Will we ever be able to be honest with each other again?
Good question. And I have no idea how to fix it.
Much of the problem begins with the media, or the majority of it anyway. I cannot speak for others but I no longer have any faith or trust in what they are saying. The media decision makers are corporate controlled while the journalists are incredibly biased.
So if you cannot trust even the source of information then how can you even begin to have an honest discussion?
I think the hate and distrust, due to the media, has gone beyond the point of honest discussion.
I read a book, written by a amateur astronomer, living in Ohio during the 20th century. So it wasn't a book about politics. Far from it, astronomy and growing up in rural Ohio.
Great book, but what caught me eye was his writing on his grandfather and his Civil War march on Atlanta as part of the Union Army.
The South held on to the Civil War for a very, very, very long time. But it seems that the North also held on the Civil War for a couple of generations.
We are not quite at the "KILLING" point right now. But the emotions are running pretty high.
At some point, one side or the other will WIN the "cold civil war".
I suspect, that just like the HOT CIVIL WAR in the 1860's it will take a couple of generations to heal the wounds on the winning side and more than that on the losing side.
But it will have to get a lot worse before it gets better.
It's getting to point of being ridiculous now. No one can keep up with what should and shouldn't be said. The list grows daily.
There's a breaking point at which good people are going to say "You know what? I don't anymore care what you think about me, or what you call me, I am going to speak my mind and beliefs, regardless."
I also believe that as more and more people get entangled and outed in their own deceptions and hypocrisy, the tide will turn.
But it will have to get a lot worse before it gets better.
It's getting to point of being ridiculous now. No one can keep up with what should and shouldn't be said. The list grows daily.
There's a breaking point at which good people are going to say "You know what? I don't anymore care what you think about me, or what you call me, I am going to speak my mind and beliefs, regardless."
I also believe that as more and more people get entangled and outed in their own deceptions and hypocrisy, the tide will turn.
Truth will always out.
The lyrics (link) to the song Kung Pao Buckaroo Holiday (video link here) tell this the best. See excerpts below:
And now the grand old opera theater proudly presents a special holiday edition of the Adventures of the Kung Pao Buckaroos
Well, it's a Kung Pao Buckaroo Holiday
Whatever you do watch what you say
If you're easily offended well that's okay
It's a completely non-offensive and politically correct holiday
We catch up with our three cowboys one cold December night huddled around a camp fire.
How 'bout we sing some holiday songs?
Yeah, hey George, you wanna lead us off?
Yeah, I got one.
Oh Chri-biip-mas tree oh Chri-biip-mas tree how lovely are thy branches...
Why am I getting bleeped again?
Haven't you heard guys? You can't say Chri-biip-mas you gotta say Holiday
I can't say Chri-biip-mas?
No, you might offend somebody.
Who is offended by Chri-biip-mas?
You…
The final lines are "I don't care who we offend, I'm sing Christmas carols if I want to sing Christmas carols" and then he launches into an unfiltered "We Wish You a Merry Christmas." I cannot literally post Youtubes on Great Debates and respect that rule but sometimes a song says it best.
The lyrics (link) to the song Kung Pao Buckaroo Holiday
The final lines are "I don't care who we offend, I'm sing Christmas carols if I want to sing Christmas carols" and then he launches into an unfiltered "We Wish You a Merry Christmas." I cannot literally post Youtubes on Great Debates and respect that rule but sometimes a song says it best.
I honestly don't know who is supposed to be stopping whom from wishing anyone a "Merry Christmas." I've heard Bill O'Reilly on Fox News rail about the "War on Christmas" every year, but it all seems to be media-fueled, manufactured outrage, if you ask me.
Here in the Northeastern United States we have a chain of stores called "The Christmas Tree Shop." There's one of these stores not far from where I live, in fact, and I shop in it regularly. The store is kind of like an old timey Woolworth's Five and Dime, and they sell everything but Christmas trees. I've never even seen them sell Christmas trees in December.
One of these days, I expect to see Bill O'Reilly storm into a Christmas Tree Shop and angrily demand to see some Christmas trees to buy. And, when he is politely told that they don't sell Christmas trees, Bill O'Reilly can then launch a "War on Christmas Trees" thingy to express his new-found outrage that he was denied a Christmas tree when he wanted one. That they "cancelled" his Christmas tree. His annual "War on Christmas" thingy was getting a bit tired, anyway, and a new theme of "War on Christmas Trees" would probably add some new life to his shtik.
jbgusa, if you want me to wish you a "Merry Christmas," then I want you to know that I have no compunctions whatsoever about doing so. I have to admit, though, that I do find it a bit peculiar wishing a fellow Jew a "Merry Christmas." I would probably be more inclined to wish you a "Yom Tov," as that would happen to be my own preference (especially since I don't celebrate Christmas, myself). But, to each his own.
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 03-15-2021 at 07:24 AM..
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Here in the USA - Will we ever be able to again have open, honest discussions?
