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In ancient times there were pantheons of G-d's, and fables, myths, and books to go with them. The most famous of these were the Greek myths, and full length books such as the Odyssey and the Iliad. Norse sagas earn honorable mention. The Bible is a hybrid, aching to stretch towards modern ethics (chiefly in Leviticus and Deuteronomy), but with a healthy dose of the supernatural mixed in. While I am a firm believer in my Jewish faith, it takes a healthy suspension of disbelief to take literally certain events. The stories of the giving of the Commandments at Mount Sinai, the parting of the Red Sea, the burning bush and the story of Noah's Ark are but a few of those.
Man, put simply, had a need to understand and attempt to control events before which he was helpless. This included disasters such as massive floods in a desert climate (story of Noah), massive storms at sea (Jonah, and The Odyssey), and lightening storms (the story of the giving of the Ten Commandments). This list of stories of ancient vintage is by no means exhaustive. Ancient man was at the mercy of the elements and knew it. In Medieval times, disasters such as the spread of smallpox and bubonic plague took front and center. There were efforts to blame those catastrophes on disfavored groups such as the Jews. This was strikingly similar to the post-Mao attribution of earthquakes to the "Gang of Four" which included Mao's despised wife.
Modern man believes he can control his environment and is traumatized when he cannot. My childhood in the early 1960's was interspersed with "duck and cover" civil defense drills. Apartment buildings and schools, and office buildings had "fallout shelter" signs. This was pure theater of course. If there were a full-scale nuclear bloodbath there would not have been years of stockpiled food and potable water. Yet it was an effort to make the fear and panic more bearable.
Similarly after the 9-11 attacks we willingly waited, and still wait in long security lines at airports and office buildings, as if that will make us safe from the sick minds that devise such evil attacks. We are generals fighting the last war. Psychology compels us to "do something" even if it is objectively futile.
History is repeating both Biblical and modern events with Covid. A huge plague sweeps the earth, apparently emanating from Chinese labs or wet markets. As if out of nowhere the news gets downright scary; people they know, or people those people know, start sickening and sometimes dying. Most, for reasons we do not know, do just fine. Yet they want to feel virtuous above having taken appropriate action. They gush with internal warm feelings when, for example, Governor Cuomo praises "tough" New Yorkers for having "beaten Covid."
Meanwhile, others prattle about "consequences" for China, or call it the "China Flu", Wuhan coronavirus or more colorfully "Kung Flu." Politicians willingly advocate "Safer at Home", "New York Pause" or other names for lockdowns. If you ask "for how long" they'll say "however long is needed." Meanwhile the politicians don't, of course, lock down. They are doing what they enjoy most. People comply because of the inbred need to "take action" or "do something."
Another example is "climate change." We grasp for explanations of devastating meteorological events such a massive hurricanes striking populated areas, or drought-fueled fires. Events such as the St. Croix Hurricane of 1772 (link) (dispute as to whether it was August 31 or September 14), but one way or another paved way for Alexander Hamilton to wind up in New York, and the Year Without Summer of 1816, see 200 years ago, we endured a 'year without a summer', are examples of overwhelming events that occurred long ago, before carbon emissions. Yet we seek to control these events, as if we could.
Basically, this harks back to the worship of the rain gods, Manitou, Great Spirit, Athena, Zeus and their less primitive Abrahamic successors. People feel a need to be in control, even when they are not. Nature is just too overwhelming.
Great Debate Question: When do we conclude that a plague such as Covid or climate change cannot be overcome, but impacts must be mitigated?
I've reframed your question as, "When will education and reason supercede human nature? Correct me if I misinterpret.
I think it's a natural part of problem-solving and prevention to ask, "What did I (he, they) do wrong" when things go awry. When people can't find an answer to that then there must have been a powerful force beyond human understanding that caused the problem. As you mention it frightens people and makes them feel helpless and angry.
That must be at least one of the reasons people intuited a god and also felt the need to appease it. First believers certainly saw that in the forces of nature.
Why do "bad" things happen to "good" people? Modern medicine and government perhaps accidently reinforce the blame aspects with billboard that read, "Masks. They work" and talk of super spreaders. All that information gives us fodder to point the finger at others.
For the last forty years or so we've emphasized how events make people "feel" in our institutions of learning. I think the rationale has been to develop empathy and promote a less violent society? We increasingly legislate from the emotional perspective ignoring useful data. There are days when Congress sounds more like a self-help group than a body of wisdom.
Is it accomplishing the stated goal or creating a public that thinks with its heart instead of its head? And to what purpose?
When we kill god we must become our own gods and that comes with a whole new set of problems.
Not sure I understand your question, but aren't we "mitigating" climate change and Covid right now?
Sure not as efficiently as we ought to, but there are efforts, just not enough.
I think all rational humans realize we can't fight Nature very well.
As a Jewish person, do you believe the Bible regarding "Principalities and powers and fallen angels", who the Bible says are "in charge" of the earth since the Fall?
If you do believe that, Nature's violence is explained. Nonetheless, our mandate is to care for the Earth and we are failing miserably at that.
In ancient times there were pantheons of G-d's, and fables, myths, and books to go with them. The most famous of these were the Greek myths, and full length books such as the Odyssey and the Iliad. Norse sagas earn honorable mention. The Bible is a hybrid, aching to stretch towards modern ethics (chiefly in Leviticus and Deuteronomy), but with a healthy dose of the supernatural mixed in. While I am a firm believer in my Jewish faith, it takes a healthy suspension of disbelief to take literally certain events. The stories of the giving of the Commandments at Mount Sinai, the parting of the Red Sea, the burning bush and the story of Noah's Ark are but a few of those.
Man, put simply, had a need to understand and attempt to control events before which he was helpless. This included disasters such as massive floods in a desert climate (story of Noah), massive storms at sea (Jonah, and The Odyssey), and lightening storms (the story of the giving of the Ten Commandments). This list of stories of ancient vintage is by no means exhaustive. Ancient man was at the mercy of the elements and knew it. In Medieval times, disasters such as the spread of smallpox and bubonic plague took front and center. There were efforts to blame those catastrophes on disfavored groups such as the Jews. This was strikingly similar to the post-Mao attribution of earthquakes to the "Gang of Four" which included Mao's despised wife.
Modern man believes he can control his environment and is traumatized when he cannot. My childhood in the early 1960's was interspersed with "duck and cover" civil defense drills. Apartment buildings and schools, and office buildings had "fallout shelter" signs. This was pure theater of course. If there were a full-scale nuclear bloodbath there would not have been years of stockpiled food and potable water. Yet it was an effort to make the fear and panic more bearable.
Similarly after the 9-11 attacks we willingly waited, and still wait in long security lines at airports and office buildings, as if that will make us safe from the sick minds that devise such evil attacks. We are generals fighting the last war. Psychology compels us to "do something" even if it is objectively futile.
History is repeating both Biblical and modern events with Covid. A huge plague sweeps the earth, apparently emanating from Chinese labs or wet markets. As if out of nowhere the news gets downright scary; people they know, or people those people know, start sickening and sometimes dying. Most, for reasons we do not know, do just fine. Yet they want to feel virtuous above having taken appropriate action. They gush with internal warm feelings when, for example, Governor Cuomo praises "tough" New Yorkers for having "beaten Covid."
Meanwhile, others prattle about "consequences" for China, or call it the "China Flu", Wuhan coronavirus or more colorfully "Kung Flu." Politicians willingly advocate "Safer at Home", "New York Pause" or other names for lockdowns. If you ask "for how long" they'll say "however long is needed." Meanwhile the politicians don't, of course, lock down. They are doing what they enjoy most. People comply because of the inbred need to "take action" or "do something."
Another example is "climate change." We grasp for explanations of devastating meteorological events such a massive hurricanes striking populated areas, or drought-fueled fires. Events such as the St. Croix Hurricane of 1772 (link) (dispute as to whether it was August 31 or September 14), but one way or another paved way for Alexander Hamilton to wind up in New York, and the Year Without Summer of 1816, see 200 years ago, we endured a 'year without a summer', are examples of overwhelming events that occurred long ago, before carbon emissions. Yet we seek to control these events, as if we could.
Basically, this harks back to the worship of the rain gods, Manitou, Great Spirit, Athena, Zeus and their less primitive Abrahamic successors. People feel a need to be in control, even when they are not. Nature is just too overwhelming.
Great Debate Question: When do we conclude that a plague such as Covid or climate change cannot be overcome, but impacts must be mitigated?
I reject the notion that man cannot prevent many of the consequences of a plague. The vaccines we have developed under enormous pressure are soon going to work the equivalent of a modern day miracle. Yes, we have lost over 500,000 Americans because of this disease. We could have easily have lost three times that number.
Years ago, I saw the movie Lawrence of Arabia with Peter O'Toole. There is this wonderful scene in the movie where O'Toole enters the desert on his own and leads a stranded man to safety to proof to a bunch of superstitious Arabs that nothing in life is predestined. I believe that to this day. Man suffers, but he has a brain. As long as he has that magnificent brain--and uses it--nothing is predestined. We write our own destiny day by day, hour by hour, and minute by minute.
I've reframed your question as, "When will education and reason supercede human nature? Correct me if I misinterpret.
**************
When we kill god we must become our own gods and that comes with a whole new set of problems.
Great re-frame and great conclusion.
The issue as I see it with both Covid and "climate change" are matters that (aside from recent vaccines) we can do little about. Certainly the initial spread was beyond our control.
With "climate change" we seem to entertain the superstitious belief that if we didn't have the high standards of living we enjoy the earth would be a better place. We come up with these formulas that purport to show that if we reduce emissions "x" % below 1990 levels (and 1986 for some countries) that will reduce warming by "y" amount. When sensible weather casts doubt on "climate change", i.e. the ice bath that affected the country from North Dakota clear down to the Mexican border, there must be some man-made reason. Never mind that throughout recorded time there have been dramatic and alarming weather and climate events.
Similarly, with Covid, we pretend that if we all hide and cower the virus will magically go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand&Salt
As a Jewish person, do you believe the Bible regarding "Principalities and powers and fallen angels", who the Bible says are "in charge" of the earth since the Fall?
I never heard that. Citation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
I reject the notion that man cannot prevent many of the consequences of a plague. The vaccines we have developed under enormous pressure are soon going to work the equivalent of a modern day miracle. Yes, we have lost over 500,000 Americans because of this disease. We could have easily have lost three times that number.
Years ago, I saw the movie Lawrence of Arabia with Peter O'Toole. There is this wonderful scene in the movie where O'Toole enters the desert on his own and leads a stranded man to safety to proof to a bunch of superstitious Arabs that nothing in life is predestined. I believe that to this day. Man suffers, but he has a brain. As long as he has that magnificent brain--and uses it--nothing is predestined. We write our own destiny day by day, hour by hour, and minute by minute.
Even though we often don't see eye to eye I agree with most of this. Yes, it is a miracle if we don't manage to screw it up by screwing up the rollout of vaccines. In other news I got my first shot of Phizer on Monday.
I was trying to remember the principalities verse. There are many references to, depending on interpretations of Hebrew, the devil or the power of evil's control of the earth. Many of the references are in the book of John.
And, of course, by Christian interpretation this does carry blame with it. The Bible states that God created the earth and saw that it was good. Then Adam and Eve (especially that wayward Eve) didn't follow the rules and since then we've been subject to the pains of existence.
There are plenty of people who aren't Christian but it seems like human nature still to feel as though someone is to blame for mishaps.
Anyway out of curiosity I looked it up. Not sure if there's more than one. I think it's important to understand its metaphorical quality.
Ephesians 6:12-13
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."
Well, I'll expand on my last post and see if we can't get back on a track that encourages more to respond.
The heart mind tells us not to do harm, to help others. I think the majority of us want to live this peace-oriented life-style. But to follow that desire means to deny the brain mind, the rational, educated mind that tells us that all it takes is one evil-intentioned person with enough power to bring down a whole community of peace lovers.
We may not like it but it holds true among all living creatures that "might makes right," that ultimately "nature is red in tooth and claw." This creates a life-threatening dilemma for well-intentioned people.
In a society that no longer can agree on what is moral, what is healthy, what the major goal is we can no longer count on any cultural institution to protect us. We become lone individuals and no longer have the strength of unity. Interdependence is lost and in its place we have a culture that promotes narcissism. We're not sure who or what to trust.
Seems ironic that progress has brought us to this point. World travel, communication, relocation (and maybe rationalism) bring as many challenges as they do benefits.
We haven't made a lot of progress. Instead of dancing fevers and hysteria, we have mass parties; now extremists are starting to blame the Jews, just like was done in Dark Ages.
Not sure I understand your question, but aren't we "mitigating" climate change and Covid right now?
Sure not as efficiently as we ought to, but there are efforts, just not enough.
I think all rational humans realize we can't fight Nature very well.
As a Jewish person, do you believe the Bible regarding "Principalities and powers and fallen angels", who the Bible says are "in charge" of the earth since the Fall?
If you do believe that, Nature's violence is explained. Nonetheless, our mandate is to care for the Earth and we are failing miserably at that.
The "Fall of Man" (and related concept of "original sin" is a Christian belief), not a Jewish one, as are the "Principalities and powers and fallen angels".
To answer the OP's question, we see now, just as we did with 9/11 and AIDS, that there will always be some people who view these happenings as punishment from a god or at least a god having a hand in it and others who roll up their sleeves and get to work to find solutions. Then, of course, there will always be those who work to exploit such events for their own agendas.
Not sure I understand your question, but aren't we "mitigating" climate change and Covid right now?
Sure not as efficiently as we ought to, but there are efforts, just not enough.
I think all rational humans realize we can't fight Nature very well.
As a Jewish person, do you believe the Bible regarding "Principalities and powers and fallen angels", who the Bible says are "in charge" of the earth since the Fall?
If you do believe that, Nature's violence is explained. Nonetheless, our mandate is to care for the Earth and we are failing miserably at that.
I think Mightyqueen801 gave a good answer to that. I'll just add this:
Angels aren't a central belief in Judaism -- certainly not the way that they are in Christianity. Only G-d is "in charge" of the earth. Any angels mentioned in the Jewish Bible (which differs from the Christian Bible, and not just in not having a "New Testament") never had free will to be in charge of anything, and were only capable of doing G-d's bidding.
I do believe that we should all care for the earth and its creatures. I don't know about explaining "Nature's violence," or whether it even can be explained. I only know that it is incumbent upon all of us to live the best lives that we are capable of living while we are still alive and on this earth. For a Jew, that means to live in accordance with what G-d has asked of us.
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