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Thank you. Here's some irony for you: Bill O'Reilly, who used to rant on Fox News about how White privilege doesn't exist, grew up in Levittown, New York. His father was one of the many White veterans who was able to purchase one of the government-subsidized homes built for veterans -- whereas Black veterans were denied this privilege.
How many of Bill's dad's comrades didn't come home? Or came home crippled, or disabled from PTSD?
Hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so you can sit here and preach about how they had "privilege".
Yes, we all know blacks weren't treated as well in those days. That's been largely corrected. Go back and read my post about the integration of the forces after ww2.
Nope, I simply live in (adjacent to) Chicago, and see what I see. Are you denying that those traits exist among so many in our largest cities today, in percentages so much higher than average? If so, would you be interesting in buying the bridge that goes from Chicago to Benton Harbor? Out of wedlock births, high-school graduation rates, juvenile records, kids testing three years below their actual ages in math and reading, etc.. Cultural. "You shall know them by their fruit".
I would not describe any of the above as being "cultural." Rather, I would describe it as being endemic among any group of people consigned to living in overcrowded, impoverished urban communities. As improved transportation made suburban sleeper communities more attractive to urban dwellers, they were able to move out of cities in order to raise their children in better school districts and provide them with better opportunities. Black people were in many cases barred from living in these communities (see my earlier post about Levittown, New York, as well as sheena12's previous post about other suburban segregation on Long Island). Add to this the fact that Chicago is one of the most segregated cities in the country, if not the most, as well as how this segregation came to be, and it becomes apparent that this so-called "culture" you speak of is actually a product of past, governmental and societal abuses.
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And, I forgot to include the group that has done even better than Asians in America: The Jews. This is in spite of the persecution so many of them faced in this country in the early and mid-1900's, let alone what happened to them in Europe, which speaks for itself. Again, superior culture, superior results.
How little you know about the Jews. Those Jews who chose to assimilate into American society managed to do well for themselves -- at the cost of adulterating their religion and traditions, if not entirely giving these up. Those Jews who chose not to entirely assimilate into American society (usually perjoratively referred to as the "ultra-Orthodox" and more correctly referred to as the Haredi) mostly live below the poverty line in the United States. Just as many Poor Whites (which I'd mentioned in an earlier post) have been unable to climb out of poverty due to rural geographic isolation, and many Blacks remain in poverty due to historic segregation, many of the Haredim remain in poverty due to self-imposed religious separation.
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Bottom line, WAY too many people in the U.S., of all sizes, shapes, colors, and backgrounds, reject the idea of "don't soil your own nest" (my buddy's Grandma, who used to go to Temple, said this frequently, but used different terminology, LOL). For the record, Italian Mobsters suck as well, on that we both agree. Bad Culture. Do they even exist anymore, and in what numbers? Can't say I've seen any in Chicago lately, and at one time, I hear they were big here.
"Though the majority of the Mafia's activities are contained to the Northeastern United States and Chicago, they continue to dominate organized crime, despite the increasing numbers of other crime groups." Quoted from "American Mafia".
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 04-27-2021 at 09:39 PM..
How many of Bill's dad's comrades didn't come home? Or came home crippled, or disabled from PTSD?
Hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so you can sit here and preach about how they had "privilege".
Yes, we all know blacks weren't treated as well in those days. That's been largely corrected. Go back and read my post about the integration of the forces after ww2.
Are you saying that only White people gave their lives for this country? Are you not aware that there were also people of color and other minority members who served in WW II? Where is your high umbrage over the fact that those veterans did not receive the same treatment as the White veterans after the war? Yes, I am aware that it took President Truman to finally demand that the U.S. military end its segregation policies. That was not an instant "fix" in American society, and there are still problems that remain -- mostly due to society rather than the government these days.
We ALL need to be a bit less defensive and realize that there are people on both sides of this controversy with voices that need to be heard. There needs to be a lot of open, honest dialogue before we can even begin to resolve these problems. People on both sides not only need to be heard, but also need to to be willing to listen. Change won't come about if we fear each other and react defensively.
Are you saying that only White people gave their lives for this country? Are you not aware that there were also people of color and other minority members who served in WW II? Where is your high umbrage over the fact that those veterans did not receive the same treatment as the White veterans after the war? Yes, I am aware that it took President Truman to finally demand that the U.S. military end its segregation policies. That was not an instant "fix" in American society, and there are still problems that remain -- mostly due to society rather than the government these days.
We ALL need to be a bit less defensive and realize that there are people on both sides of this controversy with voices that need to be heard. There needs to be a lot of open, honest dialogue before we can even begin to resolve these problems. People on both sides not only need to be heard, but also need to to be willing to listen. Change won't come about if we fear each other and react defensively.
Per the article, the total number of United States WWII deaths was 419,000. Of those, there were 708 African American "combat deaths" in WWII. The article didn't state "total" AA deaths, but I do know that about 300 were killed at the Port Chicago ammunition ship disaster alone, so the number must be significantly higher. I also know that many AA's contributed to the War Effort by working in the plants that made munitions, tanks, ships, and planes (I watched a video of a black guy who went back to the NAD site in Nebraska with his family decades later, it tugged at the heartstrings). These numbers may or may not weigh on your own personal feelings as to whether the post-war GI Bill was "unjust" in a significant way. I think that what is happening today weighs much more heavily in the equation than what happened seventy-five years ago, but those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it, right?
With respect to my own knowledge of people of the Jewish faith, I've had a forty year friendship with two guys who Rachel would probably consider to be "greatly watered down", their Jewish Mom married their Catholic Dad, so there was a bit of confusion around Christmas in that house. Grandma was pretty hard core, though, from what I understand. So yeah, I'm no expert. But I'm pretty sure Jews in the U.S. are over-represented in things I consider "good" (business, occupational success, education, etc.) and under-represented in things I consider "not-so-good" (criminal activity, destruction of property, violence, drug use, prison population, one parent households, etc.). Maybe it's because they (at least the Ashkenazi) are purported to score the highest on IQ tests of all the people on earth, I dunno. I've heard of the New York "fundamentalists", but have no experience - I never knew of the extent of Jewish representation in organized crime until I saw "Once Upon a Time in America", who'da thunk it. I was born in a Chicago Italian neighborhood, but as far as I know, the numbers are dwindled and scattered, I'm not sure I would trust "American Mafia". I think Organized Crime as it used to be (Italian) is a shadow of its former self today, it's mostly "disorganized" now, except for the Cartels and inner-city gangs (and you can't forget about "politicians", that's the biggest organized crime family in the world). So, maybe the U.S. "Asian" population is the better benchmark after all. Why? Largely, because they aren't out shooting each other in numbers that would make Al Capone blush.
So I say "cultural", and you say "endemic". But the naked truth is that this level of violence, crime, and dysfunction currently going on in our cities needs to change for the better regardless of how it came into existence. If it doesn't, it will doom Black America, and maybe take the rest of us down with it. Right now, there is an active Civil War going on in America, but luckily, it is a Cold War. Should it go "Hot", heaven help us. And places like Portland, Chicago, New York, and Minneapolis in 2020? Definitely upping the heat.
It's not a notion; it's historical fact. Many of the people who disagree aren't aware of those aspects of history. That's the whole point. It's about education; this is why the DOE is setting guidelines.
To have not studied certain details of history isn't a crime. You seem oddly blame-oriented.
Most people are aware that legal and institutional discrimination against black people existed until the civil rights movement of the 1960s. This is well-taught in our schools and history books. Americans today are nearly universally opposed to the kind of discrimination that existed back then.
What is more controversial are the claims that institutional or systemic discrimination against black people have been ongoing since the civil rights movement and exist to this day. On that matter, people don’t hold the same opinion.
Per the article, the total number of United States WWII deaths was 419,000. Of those, there were 708 African American "combat deaths" in WWII. The article didn't state "total" AA deaths, but I do know that about 300 were killed at the Port Chicago ammunition ship disaster alone, so the number must be significantly higher. I also know that many AA's contributed to the War Effort by working in the plants that made munitions, tanks, ships, and planes (I watched a video of a black guy who went back to the NAD site in Nebraska with his family decades later, it tugged at the heartstrings). These numbers may or may not weigh on your own personal feelings as to whether the post-war GI Bill was "unjust" in a significant way. I think that what is happening today weighs much more heavily in the equation than what happened seventy-five years ago, but those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it, right?
First of all, I never said that the G.I. Bill was unjust. I said that Levittown was an example of government-subsidized housing for veterans that barred Black veterans from availing themselves of home purchase there, and that also initially barred Jewish veterans from purchasing a home there. The government was complicit in this particular injustice, by turning a blind eye to this and permitting the builder of Levittown to discriminate in this way with tax-payer money.
Secondly, yes, it is always a good thing to try to improve one's understanding of the subject -- but merely locating a fact online and then not attempting to discover why such a fact came about is hardly an improvement of one's understanding. Yes, it is true that African Americans were under-represented in regard to WW II combat casualties, "despite a high enlistment rate in the U.S. Army" (quoted from your linked article). Has it not occurred to you that perhaps segregation in the military might have played a role in this? If you had read further on in that Wiki article you linked, you would have seen that in the Navy the Black enlisted men were routinely assigned to such duties as cargo handling. Hence the disproportionate number of African American deaths in the Port Chicago ammunition ship disaster -- involving men who had not received formal training in the handling and loading of explosives into ships and who had been urged by White officers to "hurry up" with the loading of these explosives. If you had read still further you would have discovered that, following President Truman's order that the military end its policy of segregation, the Vietnam War showed that "African Americans were over-represented in hazardous duty and combat roles during the conflict, and suffered disproportionately higher casualty rates."
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With respect to my own knowledge of people of the Jewish faith, I've had a forty year friendship with two guys who Rachel would probably consider to be "greatly watered down", their Jewish Mom married their Catholic Dad, so there was a bit of confusion around Christmas in that house. Grandma was pretty hard core, though, from what I understand. So yeah, I'm no expert. But I'm pretty sure Jews in the U.S. are over-represented in things I consider "good" (business, occupational success, education, etc.) and under-represented in things I consider "not-so-good" (criminal activity, destruction of property, violence, drug use, prison population, one parent households, etc.). Maybe it's because they (at least the Ashkenazi) are purported to score the highest on IQ tests of all the people on earth, I dunno. I've heard of the New York "fundamentalists", but have no experience - I never knew of the extent of Jewish representation in organized crime until I saw "Once Upon a Time in America", who'da thunk it. I was born in a Chicago Italian neighborhood, but as far as I know, the numbers are dwindled and scattered, I'm not sure I would trust "American Mafia". I think Organized Crime as it used to be (Italian) is a shadow of its former self today, it's mostly "disorganized" now, except for the Cartels and inner-city gangs (and you can't forget about "politicians", that's the biggest organized crime family in the world). So, maybe the U.S. "Asian" population is the better benchmark after all. Why? Largely, because they aren't out shooting each other in numbers that would make Al Capone blush.
Yes, it is true that Ashkenazi Jews have scored high on IQ tests, and are also over-represented as Nobel Prize winners, and that this can probably be explained due to a culture in which emphasis is placed on learning and performance. So it's nice that you admire this aspect of Jewish culture. What I attempted to point out to you is that having a high IQ does not necessarily mean that one is going to wind up successfully wealthy in life, and I gave you the example of those Jews whom you pejoratively referred to as "fundamentalists."
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So I say "cultural", and you say "endemic". But the naked truth is that this level of violence, crime, and dysfunction currently going on in our cities needs to change for the better regardless of how it came into existence. If it doesn't, it will doom Black America, and maybe take the rest of us down with it. Right now, there is an active Civil War going on in America, but luckily, it is a Cold War. Should it go "Hot", heaven help us. And places like Portland, Chicago, New York, and Minneapolis in 2020? Definitely upping the heat.
It is a matter of perception as to who is "upping the heat." The level of violence, crime, and dysfunction that was recently displayed at our nation's Capitol (and a few years previously in Charlottesville, Virginia) is indicative of many problems in our nation, not all of which are caused by minorities.
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 04-28-2021 at 06:48 AM..
ANY amount of so called "anti-racism" is too much. In fact the phrase should be a three word phrase with the word "White" entered into it between the two existing words.
Since I'm about to shell out thousands to paint my house, I'm curious as to whether or not those posting here agree with this new program:
"Evanston's City Council voted 8-1 on Monday to approve the Local Reparations Restorative Housing Program, an official confirmed to NPR over email. It will grant qualifying households up to $25,000for down payments or home repairs, according to the city, and is the first initiative of a city reparations fund that was established in 2019." https://www.npr.org/2021/03/23/98027...r-black-reside
My Great great Grandfather lost an eye at Gettysburg, shouldn't the government pay for my home as well?.
If you had read still further you would have discovered that, following President Truman's order that the military end its policy of segregation, the Vietnam War showed that "African Americans were over-represented in hazardous duty and combat roles during the conflict, and suffered disproportionately higher casualty rates."
Where did you get this quote? Do you have evidence to support this claim? From what I've read, black casualties were approximately proportional to black enlistment and conscription during Vietnam, if you include officer casualties (most officers were white at that time), or maybe one percentage point higher, since blacks were more likely the grunts on the front line rather than officers in the rear. Yet even so, I'm not seeing
In the 1960s, Black Americans comprised 11% of the population.
It does appear that blacks were drafted disproportionately to their numbers, which makes sense since early in the war college students (mostly white) were not drafted, and whites also had more opportunity to defer.
But the notion that some racist commanders were sending blacks disproportionately into harm's way really makes no sense because the platoons by that time were completely integrated. They didn't have all-black platoons as they did during WW2 (e.g. the Abraham Lincoln brigade) and Korea.
Vietnam was the first "integrated" war that the U.S. has fought. Not that we want to advocate war as a way to integrate society, but since we got onto the military as an allegedly racist institution, this is just to shed some light and perspective. The military in the U.S. is demonstrably the least racist institution since the 1950s!
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Those Jews who chose to assimilate into American society managed to do well for themselves -- at the cost of adulterating their religion and traditions, if not entirely giving these up. Those Jews who chose not to entirely assimilate into American society (usually perjoratively referred to as the "ultra-Orthodox" and more correctly referred to as the Haredi) mostly live below the poverty line in the United States. Just as many Poor Whites (which I'd mentioned in an earlier post) have been unable to climb out of poverty due to rural geographic isolation, and many Blacks remain in poverty due to historic segregation, many of the Haredim remain in poverty due to self-imposed religious separation. 