Russian Migrant Identity Struggle-‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore (Iraq, generations)

[Rachel NewYork]

Originally Posted by kgordeeva

I was born in Russia and came to the U.S. when I was very young... I don't feel ashamed at all. I know that Russian leaders have been very ruthless and I wouldn't trust the Russian government. However, many of the ordinary citizens are good people with big hearts. They may come off cold at first, but you just have to get to know them... Not all Russians are heartless sociopaths as some people still like to believe.

kgordeeva, I believe you. Thousands of good and decent Russian citizens have already been arrested in their country for daring to publicly protest the war in Ukraine. Don't ever be ashamed of who you are.

Originally Posted by jbgusa

I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers.

jbgusa, I have never gotten this thing about hating, either. I am also a Jew, and I don't hate the people living today for the wrongs committed in the past by their ancestors. Germany is an example that comes quickest to mind -- there is probably no European nation today that has worked harder than Germany to acknowledge and address its past wrongs as best it can.

Despite the fact that the sins of the Holocaust are unforgivable, I hold no hatred in my heart for today's European people who were children at the time or who were born long after these events. I have no expectation of shame from them -- my only expectation is that they acknowledge their nation's past wrongs so that they may continue to strive to make a better nation today. The same goes for our own United States regarding its own past wrongs against various peoples.

I'm skeptical of nationalistic pride -- governments and nations change with time, as we all know. But I can understand having pride in the land where one was born, its beauty and one's memories of how that very land once provided one's sustenance. I can understand having fond memories of good neighbors who were almost like one's own family. Even for those who were forced to leave their homes and countries to emigrate to somewhere new and safer, I can understand an immigrant's wistful longing for the land he left, and whatever good associations he may have had with it.

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Taking major risks, moving to a new country with a different language and culture, shows real courage.

I agree. But whether one's courage takes the form of choosing to remain or risking the start of a new life elsewhere, neither choice can be an easy one. To all those who have suffered, my heart goes out to you.

[Travelassie]

Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork

kgordeeva, I believe you. Thousands of good and decent Russian citizens have already been arrested in their country for daring to publicly protest the war in Ukraine. Don't ever be ashamed of who you are.



jbgusa, I have never gotten this thing about hating, either. I am also a Jew, and I don't hate the people living today for the wrongs committed in the past by their ancestors. Germany is an example that comes quickest to mind -- there is probably no European nation today that has worked harder than Germany to acknowledge and address its past wrongs as best it can.

Despite the fact that the sins of the Holocaust are unforgivable, I hold no hatred in my heart for today's European people who were children at the time or who were born long after these events. I have no expectation of shame from them -- my only expectation is that they acknowledge their nation's past wrongs so that they may continue to strive to make a better nation today. The same goes for our own United States regarding its own past wrongs against various peoples.

I'm skeptical of nationalistic pride -- governments and nations change with time, as we all know. But I can understand having pride in the land where one was born, its beauty and one's memories of how that very land once provided one's sustenance. I can understand having fond memories of good neighbors who were almost like one's own family. Even for those who were forced to leave their homes and countries to emigrate to somewhere new and safer, I can understand an immigrant's wistful longing for the land he left, and whatever good associations he may have had with it.



I agree. But whether one's courage takes the form of choosing to remain or risking the start of a new life elsewhere, neither choice can be an easy one. To all those who have suffered, my heart goes out to you.

Very well said, and I agree wholeheartedly.

I don't think anyone should be ashamed of who they are.

[Ruth4Truth]

Imagine all the people who left Russia before or after the Revolution, then after WWII. Some of them, when you called it "Russia", they'd quickly correct you, and said "Soviet Union", as if Russia (as they knew it) was dead. But it didn't occur to anyone to deny who they were, and where they were from.

I'm not sure why it would be different now. Russia still has a grand tradition in the arts, and a very rich culture. There are many good people there, and among the emigres in the West. It's quite obvious who's responsible for the current situation. Why would Russians disown their heritage, rather than disowning the current leader?

[Ice_Major]

Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork

kgordeeva, I believe you. Thousands of good and decent Russian citizens have already been arrested in their country for daring to publicly protest the war in Ukraine. Don't ever be ashamed of who you are.



jbgusa, I have never gotten this thing about hating, either. I am also a Jew, and I don't hate the people living today for the wrongs committed in the past by their ancestors. Germany is an example that comes quickest to mind -- there is probably no European nation today that has worked harder than Germany to acknowledge and address its past wrongs as best it can.

Despite the fact that the sins of the Holocaust are unforgivable, I hold no hatred in my heart for today's European people who were children at the time or who were born long after these events. I have no expectation of shame from them -- my only expectation is that they acknowledge their nation's past wrongs so that they may continue to strive to make a better nation today. The same goes for our own United States regarding its own past wrongs against various peoples.

I'm skeptical of nationalistic pride -- governments and nations change with time, as we all know. But I can understand having pride in the land where one was born, its beauty and one's memories of how that very land once provided one's sustenance. I can understand having fond memories of good neighbors who were almost like one's own family. Even for those who were forced to leave their homes and countries to emigrate to somewhere new and safer, I can understand an immigrant's wistful longing for the land he left, and whatever good associations he may have had with it.



I agree. But whether one's courage takes the form of choosing to remain or risking the start of a new life elsewhere, neither choice can be an easy one. To all those who have suffered, my heart goes out to you.

I had to highlight the bolded section because I believe you hit it on the mark, particularly the part of "acknowledge their nation's past wrongs so that they may continue to strive to make a better nation today." Unfortunately, it appears to be human nature to "downplay" or ignore their nation's sins. Maybe it's an attempt to protect fragile egos. Germany was an exception since their entire government was wiped out and they lived under foreign occupiers who quite frankly made them. Look at Japan. It refuses to acknowledge its wrongs. The difference lying with the fact Japan got to keep its government following WWII. I grew up in the South and to this day descendants of the confederacy refuse to acknowledge the sins of their ancestors nor offer any sorts of amends. Black people are told to just get over it, it wasn't that bad, everyone was doing it.

[ohio_peasant]

Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork

I'm skeptical of nationalistic pride -- governments and nations change with time, as we all know. But I can understand having pride in the land where one was born, its beauty and one's memories of how that very land once provided one's sustenance.

Unfortunately the "nationalistic pride" is a particularly fraught subject for Americans. The French are proud of their cuisine, Notre Dame, Moliere, Sartre. The Germans are proud of Bach-Beethoven-Brahms, Goethe, Gauss. Russians are proud of Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, ballet, the poetic cadence of their language, their achievements in space and in math and so on. Nearly every nation has some landmark, cultural signpost, notable contributions to literature and music and architecture and so on.

One rarely hears Americans being proud of the Hoover Dam, or the Rocky Mountains, or Twain or Hemingway, or Thomas Edison, or jazz. Instead, American pride is political and creedal. The Constitution. Separation of powers. Representative Republic. America has many fine monuments to human ingenuity, but doesn't really define itself in those terms. America has no national language or a figure like Shakespeare or Cervantes or Pushkin in its literary expression. The Mississippi just doesn't have the same cultural pull as the Volga or the Rhein. The giants of American history are mainly its political figures... Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln.

So for a Russian or a German it is very natural to segregate the respective culture/landscape/people/achievements from government and politics. A Russian could love Russia but hate Nicholas II or Lenin or Putin. I don't think that this is possible in America. Thus nth-generation native-born Americans struggle to see how an immigrant could have enduring fondness for their former nation as a culture and a people, but to desire to have no association with its government, its politics or its narrative as a nation-state.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

Unfortunately the "nationalistic pride" is a particularly fraught subject for Americans. The French are proud of their cuisine, Notre Dame, Moliere, Sartre. The Germans are proud of Bach-Beethoven-Brahms, Goethe, Gauss. Russians are proud of Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, ballet, the poetic cadence of their language, their achievements in space and in math and so on. Nearly every nation has some landmark, cultural signpost, notable contributions to literature and music and architecture and so on.

You happen to be too right on this. We actually have plenty, but too many spend too much time nitpicking the imperfections. I'll take them in bunches, a few at a time.

1. Notre Dame - We have nothing of the antiquity or history of that cathedral. One of the few drawbacks of not having the state and religion intertwined.
2. Molier, Sartre, Goethe, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky - I differ here. We have James Fenimore, James Hemingway, Edgar Allan Poe, Washington Irving, Jack London, Samuel Clemens a/k/a Mark Twain, William Faulkner, and numerous other great authors. The tradition of course does not go as far back but we've done some serious catching up.
3. Carl Gauss - We have Thomas Edison, Jonas Salk Alexander Graham Bell (shared with Canada) and scientists that Europe persecuted away such as Albert Einstein.
4. Bach-Beethoven-Brahms - We have Aaron Copeland, and Igor Stravinsky, persecuted away from Europe, and others. Again, like the authors, the tradition of course does not go as far back but we've done some serious catching up. For a young country we have a lot

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

One rarely hears Americans being proud of the Hoover Dam, or the Rocky Mountains, or Twain or Hemingway, or Thomas Edison, or jazz. Instead, American pride is political and creedal.

Maybe not the Hoover Dam, but the Rockies can tie with anything the Alps have to throw at them. The Urals? Really.

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

The Constitution. Separation of powers. Representative Republic. America has many fine monuments to human ingenuity, but doesn't really define itself in those terms. America has no national language or a figure like Shakespeare or Cervantes or Pushkin in its literary expression. The Mississippi just doesn't have the same cultural pull as the Volga or the Rhein. The giants of American history are mainly its political figures... Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln.

As for the Mississippi, sure it does. The show Showboat and Ol' Man River, and the Hudson River school of painting?

Originally Posted by ohio_peasant

So for a Russian or a German it is very natural to segregate the respective culture/landscape/people/achievements from government and politics. A Russian could love Russia but hate Nicholas II or Lenin or Putin. I don't think that this is possible in America. Thus nth-generation native-born Americans struggle to see how an immigrant could have enduring fondness for their former nation as a culture and a people, but to desire to have no association with its government, its politics or its narrative as a nation-state.

I see no reason not to love the Hudson River school of painting and have no particular admiration for John Quincy Adams. That being said, Europe has its strengths, no doubt. However you don't see many Americans looking to migrate their. The other direction? Plenty.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

You happen to be too right on this. We actually have plenty, but too many spend too much time nitpicking the imperfections. I'll take them in bunches, a few at a time.

1. Notre Dame - We have nothing of the antiquity or history of that cathedral. One of the few drawbacks of not having the state and religion intertwined.
2. Molier, Sartre, Goethe, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky - I differ here. We have James Fenimore, James Hemingway, Edgar Allan Poe, Washington Irving, Jack London, Samuel Clemens a/k/a Mark Twain, William Faulkner, and numerous other great authors. The tradition of course does not go as far back but we've done some serious catching up.
3. Carl Gauss - We have Thomas Edison, Jonas Salk Alexander Graham Bell (shared with Canada) and scientists that Europe persecuted away such as Albert Einstein.
4. Bach-Beethoven-Brahms - We have Aaron Copeland, and Igor Stravinsky, persecuted away from Europe, and others. Again, like the authors, the tradition of course does not go as far back but we've done some serious catching up. For a young country we have a lot

Maybe not the Hoover Dam, but the Rockies can tie with anything the Alps have to throw at them. The Urals? Really.

As for the Mississippi, sure it does. The show Showboat and Ol' Man River, and the Hudson River school of painting?

I see no reason not to love the Hudson River school of painting and have no particular admiration for John Quincy Adams. That being said, Europe has its strengths, no doubt. However you don't see many Americans looking to migrate their. The other direction? Plenty.

America has jazz. The world loves jazz. It has modern art, while Europe (including Russia) have classical art. They've preserved the classical school of art. (America could learn a thing of three about how to teach art from them.)

America has lebensraum, from sea to shining sea. Both have a lot of natural beauty.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

You happen to be too right on this. We actually have plenty, but too many spend too much time nitpicking the imperfections. I'll take them in bunches, a few at a time.

1. Notre Dame - We have nothing of the antiquity or history of that cathedral. One of the few drawbacks of not having the state and religion intertwined.
2. Molier, Sartre, Goethe, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky - I differ here. We have James Fenimore, James Hemingway, Edgar Allan Poe, Washington Irving, Jack London, Samuel Clemens a/k/a Mark Twain, William Faulkner, and numerous other great authors. The tradition of course does not go as far back but we've done some serious catching up.
3. Carl Gauss - We have Thomas Edison, Jonas Salk Alexander Graham Bell (shared with Canada) and scientists that Europe persecuted away such as Albert Einstein.
4. Bach-Beethoven-Brahms - We have Aaron Copeland, and Igor Stravinsky, persecuted away from Europe, and others. Again, like the authors, the tradition of course does not go as far back but we've done some serious catching up. For a young country we have a lot

Maybe not the Hoover Dam, but the Rockies can tie with anything the Alps have to throw at them. The Urals? Really.

As for the Mississippi, sure it does. The show Showboat and Ol' Man River, and the Hudson River school of painting?

I see no reason not to love the Hudson River school of painting and have no particular admiration for John Quincy Adams. That being said, Europe has its strengths, no doubt. However you don't see many Americans looking to migrate their. The other direction? Plenty.

Quite a few would move there, if they could. A large percentage of those who'd like to move there, though, don't have the kind of skills Europa (or anyone) wants or needs. If they have any skills at all.

Some of C-D's own posters are Americans who moved to Europe and settled there permanently.

[Apapermaker]

During one of the Gulf Wars, Americans were having push back and getting general njekulturny treatment in Germany, France, etc. It was enough to say that you're from Texas to see the attitude change, especially Germans go ga-ga with anything Texan.


Maybe you can answer the "where are you" question with your town name, and if your town is Moscow or another well known one, then the neighborhood. Bigots aren't very educated, generally, they will think it's one of those countries they never heard of, and feel too embarrassed to press further. That avoids you having to lie.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

America has jazz. The world loves jazz.

America has jazz‘s Projecty, swing and rock ‘n’ roll music. Also, America has blues and country music. Europe does better on classical music. Is Copeland really the equivalent of Beethoven? When you get beyond “serious music“ America does a lot better. I have lots of albums of Russian balalaika music, Bulgarian music, Swiss yodeling, and Irish music. This is of all of interest as exotica; I cannot listen to this music all day.