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Old 03-05-2022, 12:14 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,416 posts, read 16,517,194 times
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‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore’: Anxious Soviet Diaspora Rethinks Identity; (link), excerpts below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
“I am really concerned that there could be animosity toward members of the Russian-speaking community,” said Mr. Levin, who is still haunted by the hostility he faced as a Jew in the former Soviet Union. Jewish families represent a substantial portion of immigrants from the former Soviet bloc, where they were deprived of rights and where discrimination limited their economic and educational advancement.

*******

The label, “Russian,” has been applied to multilayered religious and cultural identities, and to people with a variety of motives and circumstances that led them to the United States from across the region — Belarus, Armenia, Moldova and other former Soviet republics. Among them are dissidents who fled the totalitarian government in the 1970s and ’80s. Jews and evangelical Christians came seeking religious freedom in the ’90s.....Two-thirds are not from Russia.....“The old self-identity crumbles under the weight of the unthinkable and unimaginable. A new self-identity as Ukrainians, Moldovans and Georgians emerges,” said Ms. Batalova, who grew up in Moldova, the daughter of a Russian father and Jewish Ukrainian mother....
I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.

Speaking for myself, I am Jewish; half Slovak/Hungarian and half Russian, from modern Poland and Ukraine. I believe, unashamedly and unapologetically, in my Jewish and American heritage. I have no pride or longing for my European roots.

How do others feel?
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Old 03-05-2022, 03:08 PM
 
Location: on the wind
22,831 posts, read 18,124,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore’: Anxious Soviet Diaspora Rethinks Identity; (link), excerpts below:

I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.


How do others feel?
Part of that hatred may be based on an inability or reluctance to discriminate between the ancestral ruler who committed the horrors and the culture that made it possible for that ruler to rise to power in the first place. People can be very lazy thinkers. Its easier to hate the whole bunch, not tease out select nefarious individuals.
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Old 03-05-2022, 03:35 PM
 
Location: moved
13,567 posts, read 9,578,717 times
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For ex-Soviet immigrants the identity crisis is especially fraught. To the OP's point, what does it mean to be a "Jew" in the 21st century, if one is non-practicing, and especially if one is the product of a so-called mixed marriage?

The former USSR had a system of internal passports, which served as national identity documents, rather than international travel documents. One's passport noted, among other things, one's "nationality". "Nationality" was something like Jew, Komi, Uzbek, Tatar and so forth... it wasn't so much a mention of the ex-Soviet Republic (Moldavia, Turkmenistan) in which one resided, but as it were, one's bloodline. Well, in the Soviet system, one's bloodline was according to that of the father, so say a child of a Ukrainian mother and a Jewish father living in Kiev would have "Jew" written in her passport... which BTW is exactly backwards from how Israel does it. So, ironically, this person is considered to be Jewish (or even Russian, if Russian-speaking???) while living in Ukraine, but Ukrainian if immigrating to Israel... a raw deal on both sides, no?

Returning to an American-centered consideration, it has always been the case, that persons descended from a certain nation find themselves at odds with mainstream American society, if it comes about, that America is at war (or at least in antagonism) with said nation. Thus famously the Japanese internment camps during WW2, or the discrimination against German immigrants during WW1.

After the collapse of the USSR, and the apparent waning of official anti-semitism, it had come to be reasonable for all Russian-speakers emigrating out of Russia, to view themselves as "Russian". Thus my acquaintance from grad school in the US, who was ethnically of some Transcaucus ethnicity, born in Chechnya (in Russia) and speaking Russian, who felt "Russian" as an immigrant in America, despite at the time waves of wars in Chechnya. That, despite a bloody and morally fraught conflict. Nearly 30 years later, such identity becomes unclear. So I have no good answer... but plenty of concern.
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Old 03-05-2022, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Texas
820 posts, read 456,032 times
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I don't think anyone should feel uncomfortable or ashamed of their origins. It is so sad to see all of Russia, or any country a lot of people are mad at, painted with the same brush. Most people just want to live their lives as best they can. I think a lot of times we get caught up in things not of our doing and maybe question our heritage. The thing to me is we are not just us, but the product of thousands of years of struggles of those who came before and we owe it to them at least a little to not turn our back on our ancestors. We are their hopes and dreams as well as our own.
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Old 03-05-2022, 04:08 PM
 
23,897 posts, read 10,260,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore’: Anxious Soviet Diaspora Rethinks Identity; (link), excerpts below:

I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.

Speaking for myself, I am Jewish; half Slovak/Hungarian and half Russian, from modern Poland and Ukraine. I believe, unashamedly and unapologetically, in my Jewish and American heritage. I have no pride or longing for my European roots.

How do others feel?
As you say "it seems". Do you know?
Personal decision..
Often what the son wanted to forget the grand son wanted to remember.
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Old 03-05-2022, 05:40 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,416 posts, read 16,517,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parnassia View Post
Part of that hatred may be based on an inability or reluctance to discriminate between the ancestral ruler who committed the horrors and the culture that made it possible for that ruler to rise to power in the first place. People can be very lazy thinkers. Its easier to hate the whole bunch, not tease out select nefarious individuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
For ex-Soviet immigrants the identity crisis is especially fraught.*****Nearly 30 years later, such identity becomes unclear. So I have no good answer... but plenty of concern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amil23 View Post
I don't think anyone should feel uncomfortable or ashamed of their origins. It is so sad to see all of Russia, or any country a lot of people are mad at, painted with the same brush. Most people just want to live their lives as best they can. I think a lot of times we get caught up in things not of our doing and maybe question our heritage. The thing to me is we are not just us, but the product of thousands of years of struggles of those who came before and we owe it to them at least a little to not turn our back on our ancestors. We are their hopes and dreams as well as our own.
I thank you for your responses. I may have been a bit unclear. My main point and the "Great Debate" question is whether emigres from benighted lands such as China and much of the former Soviet Union are in fact almost the polar opposites of the lands from which they came. I definitely don't want them to be ashamed of their origin. I want them to be proud that they, to quote Joni Mitchell, got "the urge for going."

For example, in my situation, I know only a little about my maternal grandmother's parents, even less about my father's ancestors, and literally nothing about my maternal grandfather's parents. Here's what I know:
  1. Maternal grandmother's parents - They fled from Kyiv in the mid-1890s, to Montreal (I assume the first place to which they could make safe exit) and then to Yonkers, New York. My great-grandfather was a shoemaker, or shoe repairman. Conscripted into the Czar's army (had to have been around 1890-1) they liked his work so much that they "re-enrolled" him for another five years. At that point he deserted, and fled, sending for his wife and children shortly thereafter. He set up shop in Yonkers as a shoemaker;
  2. Father's parents - I know nothing about my father's father's parents. My father's mother herself emigrated from modern Slovakia, but considered herself Hungarian. They were apparently quite wealthy in Europe, but gave it all up to move, and lived in penury until my father's mother married my paternal grandfather. Her brother became my optometrist for my first set of glasses.
  3. Maternal grandfather's parents - All I know is about his change of name, and that the father died in the Spanish Flu pandemic.
From these descriptions, the circumstantial evidence is strong that all of these people were highly motivated to leave and felt little or no nostalgia for their ancestral villages. That was left to Fiddler on the Roof, the Sholom Alechem stories, and the fictional village of Anatefka. Most of the Jewish people who remained behind wound up the victims of the Nazi Einsatzgruppen, wound up entombed at Babi Yar, or died in the gas chambers of Birkenau.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threestep2 View Post
As you say "it seems". Do you know?
Personal decision..
Often what the son wanted to forget the grand son wanted to remember.
If my ancestors are any illustration, the term "it seems" may be an understatement. These people did not look in the rearview mirror, nor would I think that, barring a miracle, the people currently transiting through Lviv or Moldova will have any real nostalgia for Ukraine. The people who left Mao's or Xi's China probably feel likewise. The bigots who accuse them of spreading Covid are blaming the wrong people. The governments of these awful countries are responsible and their atrocious behavior is why the emigres are here in the first place.

I'll tell you one thing; I don't want to be "back in the USSR."
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Old 03-05-2022, 06:50 PM
 
1,618 posts, read 816,833 times
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Probably just a European thing. Most emigrants I've met from Latin American, Africa, and parts of Asia still have high adoration towards their homeland and their identity even the second generation. Doesn't matter if their previous country was ruled by dictators.
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Old 03-05-2022, 08:16 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,416 posts, read 16,517,194 times
Reputation: 29595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
Probably just a European thing. Most emigrants I've met from Latin American, Africa, and parts of Asia still have high adoration towards their homeland and their identity even the second generation. Doesn't matter if their previous country was ruled by dictators.
still I assume that admiration is largely based on their having family that's left behind. I don't think that many Mexican migrants have particular affection for Andrés Manuel López Obrador ("AMLO"), the President of Mexico. I assume most came here because they thought they could do better in a less stagnant country. Granted, Mexico towards ordinary Mexicans is more benign indifference than the pogroms that characterized Europe, or the assorted brutalities that characterize China.
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Old 03-05-2022, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Chicago
2,222 posts, read 2,379,137 times
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I was born in Russia and came to the U.S. when I was very young... I don't feel ashamed at all. I know that Russian leaders have been very ruthless and I wouldn't trust the Russian government. However, many of the ordinary citizens are good people with big hearts. They may come off cold at first, but you just have to get to know them... Not all Russians are heartless sociopaths as some people still like to believe.
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Old 03-06-2022, 07:00 AM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,416 posts, read 16,517,194 times
Reputation: 29595
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgordeeva View Post
I was born in Russia and came to the U.S. when I was very young... I don't feel ashamed at all. I know that Russian leaders have been very ruthless and I wouldn't trust the Russian government. However, many of the ordinary citizens are good people with big hearts. They may come off cold at first, but you just have to get to know them... Not all Russians are heartless sociopaths as some people still like to believe.
To the contrary, I believe that almost anyone who gets the heck out of a country is opposed to the government or social conditions. It is easy to sit behind a keyboard, or just whine generally. Taking major risks, moving to a new country with a different language and culture, shows real courage.

Plaudits to you and your family!
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