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Working from home takes the the joys and pains out of the office. For many white collar people, the office is more of a pain than a joy. Some places are pretty nice, with food and team lunches, great window views and inspiring conference rooms, corporate and team events and annual meetings etc... But a lot are not. My last place was an uninspiring windowless cube farm where we did basically nothing with each other outside of the building.
Fear not office lovers, this will bode well for you. People focus on the push out factors of commute and times, but the pull factors are just as important, if the office isn't something fun or inspiring, then why go, even if commute isn't an issue? What will happen is companies who really push for in person working are going to have to spruce up the office and team offerings. Using all sticks and no carrots simply won't work anymore, there's too many options and too many retired boomer spots that have to be filled to boss potential candidates around.
The office isn't dead, it just has competition now. And that means that the office is going to have to get sexier.
But the reality is that expenses are going to prohibit that option for a lot of companies, especially in the current economic environment. On the path to financial wellness, family wanting millennials and gen Zs simply can't afford major metro family sized housing. For those not in the top 10% or those without both spouses working, finances just dictate staying father out of city centers. In person salaries need to be at least 25% higher to actually compete ON TOP of the office and travel expenses listed above.
Hybrid sucks, it captures the problems of both and won't stay around as a major option, it's going to be more 3-4 days in or fully remote by 2030. You can't relocate to affordable options if you still have to go in weekly and the one day in doesn't justify a nice office environment.
Hybrid may work for some people who get cabin fever or are tired of their screaming kids, for example but for many it makes no sense at all. Teams with members across the country don't have a single location to meet so the idea of forced collaboration being so vital is out the window anyway. Why commute to an office where maybe only you (or if you're lucky one or two other team members) will be working? Everyone will just get on Zoom or Teams or whatever and call into meetings just like they did from home.
My office doesn't even have dedicated work areas any more - you go online to reserve a workstation...typically not the same from day to day. Yes, I want to go into work and not even be near the few other team members I work "with"...AND have to sanitize "my" workstation because who knows the health status of the last person working on it.
Unless I'm an extreme extrovert who wants to socialize with randos who are even outside my own division or department or so crazed by being with my family 24/7 that I gotta get out...I'll just WFH forever and be perfectly happy. Only management/execs put much credence into in-person collaboration. WE work...managers get together and chew the fat (OH, COLLABORATE) all day with each other. If I need to talk to somebody I'll open a chat or set up a meeting, not a big deal pre-COVID and not a big deal now.
Working from home takes the the joys and pains out of the office. For many white collar people, the office is more of a pain than a joy. Some places are pretty nice, with food and team lunches, great window views and inspiring conference rooms, corporate and team events and annual meetings etc... But a lot are not. My last place was an uninspiring windowless cube farm where we did basically nothing with each other outside of the building.
Fear not office lovers, this will bode well for you. People focus on the push out factors of commute and times, but the pull factors are just as important, if the office isn't something fun or inspiring, then why go, even if commute isn't an issue? What will happen is companies who really push for in person working are going to have to spruce up the office and team offerings. Using all sticks and no carrots simply won't work anymore, there's too many options and too many retired boomer spots that have to be filled to boss potential candidates around.
The office isn't dead, it just has competition now. And that means that the office is going to have to get sexier.
But the reality is that expenses are going to prohibit that option for a lot of companies, especially in the current economic environment. On the path to financial wellness, family wanting millennials and gen Zs simply can't afford major metro family sized housing. For those not in the top 10% or those without both spouses working, finances just dictate staying father out of city centers. In person salaries need to be at least 25% higher to actually compete ON TOP of the office and travel expenses listed above.
Hybrid sucks, it captures the problems of both and won't stay around as a major option, it's going to be more 3-4 days in or fully remote by 2030. You can't relocate to affordable options if you still have to go in weekly and the one day in doesn't justify a nice office environment.
Interesting take. Any attempt to work an actual hybrid schedule means you are paying for the ability to work from home and also paying for the ability to work from the office. To support the office component, you either have to live closer to the city center or maintain a.relatively newer vehicle to support a commute from far-flung suburbs or exurbs. And to support the WFH component, you need to sacrifice some amount of living space, which also means you can no longer live comfortably in as small a space as you would if you were fulltime in the office. Unless you want poor posture, back pain, and associated health issues, you need a dedicated desk, and space to walk around the desk, at least on 2 or 3 sides of it. When all is set and done, the end result is that even part-time WFH results in a situation where the employer is “occupying” approximately 50 square feet of your personal living space. (Again, assuming you value your posture and thus are not cramming yourself into a suboptimal setup.)
Having the option to work a hybrid schedule can be valuable to some people, but it is also quite expensive since you are maintaining two work modalities and the infrastructure associated with both. I understand that others may have different preferences, but I personally would rather just be in an office five days per week and not need a home office.
Working from home takes the the joys and pains out of the office. For many white collar people, the office is more of a pain than a joy. Some places are pretty nice, with food and team lunches, great window views and inspiring conference rooms, corporate and team events and annual meetings etc... But a lot are not. My last place was an uninspiring windowless cube farm where we did basically nothing with each other outside of the building.
t.
Been in all sorts of office environments, from the open bay (had one boss who arranged all the desks like a classroom with him in front like a teacher overseeing his minions), to cube farm, to private office. My favorite was the private office in an old building that was built before the days of cubicles. Wasn't fancey, just cement block walls. But I could close the door and focus. Not like the various open ones where there are constant distractions, including the wandering souls who spend the day going from desk to desk to yap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P
Fear not office lovers, this will bode well for you. People focus on the push out factors of commute and times, but the pull factors are just as important, if the office isn't something fun or inspiring, then why go, even if commute isn't an issue? What will happen is companies who really push for in person working are going to have to spruce up the office and team offerings. Using all sticks and no carrots simply won't work anymore, there's too many options and too many retired boomer spots that have to be filled to boss potential candidates around.
So far all I'm seeing is sticks. No carrots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63
Unless I'm an extreme extrovert who wants to socialize with randos who are even outside my own division or department or so crazed by being with my family 24/7 that I gotta get out...I'll just WFH forever and be perfectly happy. Only management/execs put much credence into in-person collaboration. WE work...managers get together and chew the fat (OH, COLLABORATE) all day with each other. If I need to talk to somebody I'll open a chat or set up a meeting, not a big deal pre-COVID and not a big deal now.
I might go a bit further and modify that to say the management/execs who got their jobs through schmoozing are the ones who want to "collaborate."
Been in all sorts of office environments, from the open bay (had one boss who arranged all the desks like a classroom with him in front like a teacher overseeing his minions), to cube farm, to private office. My favorite was the private office in an old building that was built before the days of cubicles. Wasn't fancey, just cement block walls. But I could close the door and focus. Not like the various open ones where there are constant distractions, including the wandering souls who spend the day going from desk to desk to yap.
So far all I'm seeing is sticks. No carrots.
I might go a bit further and modify that to say the management/execs who got their jobs through schmoozing are the ones who want to "collaborate."
I could not agree more about schmoozing being the primary way to get into management. It's not what I want for myself so please (execs) don't subject me to something that only benefits the "higher-ups" and costs me commuting time while also putting me at a health risk (especiallys since my workplace does not require proof of COVID vaccinations, only lack of a fever to gain admittance).
Interesting take. Any attempt to work an actual hybrid schedule means you are paying for the ability to work from home and also paying for the ability to work from the office. To support the office component, you either have to live closer to the city center or maintain a.relatively newer vehicle to support a commute from far-flung suburbs or exurbs. And to support the WFH component, you need to sacrifice some amount of living space, which also means you can no longer live comfortably in as small a space as you would if you were fulltime in the office. Unless you want poor posture, back pain, and associated health issues, you need a dedicated desk, and space to walk around the desk, at least on 2 or 3 sides of it. When all is set and done, the end result is that even part-time WFH results in a situation where the employer is “occupying” approximately 50 square feet of your personal living space. (Again, assuming you value your posture and thus are not cramming yourself into a suboptimal setup.)
Having the option to work a hybrid schedule can be valuable to some people, but it is also quite expensive since you are maintaining two work modalities and the infrastructure associated with both. I understand that others may have different preferences, but I personally would rather just be in an office five days per week and not need a home office.
Exactly, you have to essentially have both. And on the flip side, what employer is going to want to reserve office space, two 4K monitors, nice chairs etc. for people who show up 1 day every other week? You have to be close to the office but still have a bigger house, you lose the schedule flexibility of remote and the reliability of having people on site etc... Being the most expensive option for both employers and employees, it will not shake out in the long run. It'll be a niche, with most roles falling to either in person or just fully remote as things settle out.
That being said, I think 4 days will be the new in person setup, where people are still going to want some flexibility for being sick or errands or working from vacation etc. That used to be called hybrid, but would now classify as in person. It's the 1-2 days in schedule that will likely die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
Been in all sorts of office environments, from the open bay (had one boss who arranged all the desks like a classroom with him in front like a teacher overseeing his minions), to cube farm, to private office. My favorite was the private office in an old building that was built before the days of cubicles. Wasn't fancey, just cement block walls. But I could close the door and focus. Not like the various open ones where there are constant distractions, including the wandering souls who spend the day going from desk to desk to yap.
So far all I'm seeing is sticks. No carrots.
I might go a bit further and modify that to say the management/execs who got their jobs through schmoozing are the ones who want to "collaborate."
Give it time. Just like the housing market, there's a better place on the horizon if you wait long enough for things to ratchet where they should be with carrots around.
For many jobs, focus is important. Collaboration and distraction are two sides of the same thing called interaction. Not being available for random questions over the cube means the asker has more difficulty, but the responder can focus for longer than 10 minutes without removing the earbuds. And that's why people are drawn to WFH, because the best office is the one you make when you know it's your setup and you buy your house accordingly that way.
One of the biggest less obvious results from the pandemic was that there was TOO MUCH interaction in the 2010s office environment. Too much call overbleed noise, too many distractions disrupting progress or trains of thought, too many meetings where you couldn't actually just work on something else and not be called out for it etc...
One of the biggest less obvious results from the pandemic was that there was TOO MUCH interaction in the 2010s office environment. Too much call overbleed noise, too many distractions disrupting progress or trains of thought, too many meetings where you couldn't actually just work on something else and not be called out for it etc...
Yes, when they started taking even small offices away (from non-managers!)...then removed "tall" walls to replace them with "short-walled" cubes...then replaced even cubes with rows of desks with foot high mini partitions of the desk only, that greatly increased the noise level and the level of distraction. Then add all the meetings with everyone called into different ones through the day and that pretty much eliminated any work that required a modicum of thought! But yes, bring on the "collab spaces"! But please, only for non-thinking managers and execs.
What about NEW workers? WFH is all well and good for people who have houses they bought 10 years ago and are so well established at their jobs they need no supervision nor mentoring, and collaboration is more annoyance than benefit. Also they have pre-existing families so no need for socialization with peers.
But imagine you are a 26 year old new graduate just starting out. He doesn't have a home office. He's sharing a house with 4 other people who can sometimes be loud. His workspace is a laptop on a TV tray next to his bed. He's not established in his job, can't really do it in an independent contractor type model like WFH is.
I'm in education, and going full remote was a huge disaster for us. It did not work well at any grade level except maybe for graduate school and not nearly 100% even for that. Outcomes WAY down across the board, for every single grade level including college. If it didn't work for younger humans and they suffered dearly for lack of socialization, I'm not sure how you think this is sustainable going forward in the world of work?
Mark my words - in 5 years, the labor shortage your workplace is experiencing now will be WORSE. I'm here to tell you - the cohorts coming up through the system are not only smaller demographically, but the 2 years of the education they lost and the effects of isolation on their mental wherewithal will mean that among those smaller cohorts, fewer still will be capable of working complex jobs independently from home. Fewer proportionally than in the previous decade. Among a SMALLER cohort.
We've just been pushing them through ignoring standards. I'm sorry, that's how it is. I was never one to say "kids these days." But no joke - the decline in grade level skills across the entire system, including college, from 2019 to today is SEVERE.
And by the way they can't even come close to affording homes in the current housing cost paradigm. So where are they going to work from?
Last edited by redguard57; 12-24-2022 at 11:51 AM..
The only reason some companies won't do it is because they are control freaks.
It comes down to simple supply and demand, until companies believe they need to offer more hybrid/WFH options to keep employees then they have no incentive to do it.
My last job in Germany low balled employees because they knew they could easily fill the spot due to the amount of people who simply want to work in Europe. Same concept here, until a company is forced to adapt or die, there is no incentive do so so. Companies are not at that point.
What about NEW workers? WFH is all well and good for people who have houses they bought 10 years ago and are so well established at their jobs they need no supervision nor mentoring, and collaboration is more annoyance than benefit. Also they have pre-existing families so no need for socialization with peers.
But imagine you are a 26 year old new graduate just starting out. He doesn't have a home office. He's sharing a house with 4 other people who can sometimes be loud. His workspace is a laptop on a TV tray next to his bed. He's not established in his job, can't really do it in an independent contractor type model like WFH is.
I'm in education, and going full remote was a huge disaster for us. It did not work well at any grade level except maybe for graduate school and not nearly 100% even for that. Outcomes WAY down across the board, for every single grade level including college. If it didn't work for younger humans and they suffered dearly for lack of socialization, I'm not sure how you think this is sustainable going forward in the world of work?
Mark my words - in 5 years, the labor shortage your workplace is experiencing now will be WORSE. I'm here to tell you - the cohorts coming up through the system are not only smaller demographically, but the 2 years of the education they lost and the effects of isolation on their mental wherewithal will mean that among those smaller cohorts, fewer still will be capable of working complex jobs independently from home. Fewer proportionally than in the previous decade. Among a SMALLER cohort.
We've just been pushing them through ignoring standards. I'm sorry, that's how it is. I was never one to say "kids these days." But no joke - the decline in grade level skills across the entire system, including college, from 2019 to today is SEVERE.
And by the way they can't even come close to affording homes in the current housing cost paradigm. So where are they going to work from?
Good points. I've been working remotely since before the pandemic. I spent the first 4 1/2 years of my career working in a office environment. I then promoted to a position that requires field work and therefore had to transition to remote work. I learned faster when I worked in the office. Being able to bounce ideas off coworkers or ask in person questions as opposed to sending emails really sped up the process and shortened the learning curve. I know every job is different, but I would certainly recommend in office work for those starting out.
At the end the day, the bottom line will decide it. If companies feel they can make more money or at least not lose anything, they will allow remote work. If they start losing money, well sorry workers it’s time to go back in. I enjoy remote work. Don’t miss commuting, or having to schedule off for important appointments, but the in-person interactions are extremely helpful. Video conferencing is so annoying now.
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