Is gender a social concept, distinct from the biological concept of sex? (ethics, drugs)
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...in several hundred years, when archeologists will find your skeleton, they WILL determine, that that was a man buried and, should they take a DNA sample from it, it will confirm that indeed, that was a man.
or, science will progress (it has a habit of doing that) They will discover that person had 2 Y chromosomes and 1 X chromosome, or something we don't even know to look for today, and they will have a gender classification for that skeleton we haven't come up with yet.
I don't think sex or gender is binary, or even neatly divided into four or six or eight categories. It's a spectrum. Not a simple line, either; more a sphere, with sexual attraction on the Y axis, gender identity on the X axis, chromosomes on the Z axis, and probably a whole alphabet of axes we haven't thought of yet.
I recently saw a video that talked about gay animals; it said the percentage varied greatly by species, with (spoiler!) giraffes topping the charts at around 94%. The video uses the term "gay" to refer to anything other than strictly hetero, and explained an evolutionary advantage to mating with without wasting time figuring out the other creature's gender.
ETA
Our local bookstore cancelled their "Drag Queen Story Hour"--where a "man" in "women's" clothing reads children's stories out loud--because opponents were planning a protest, especially encouraging "fathers and grandfathers" (i.e., aggressive males instead of weak wimmenfolk) to participate, and had even invited the Proud Boys. Then supporters were planning a counter protest.
This is an open-carry state. Things could go very wrong.
This makes me nuts. Most little kids can't get to the store by themselves, their parents choose to bring them. The protesters were trying to prevent people from choosing for themselves. Sigh.
I often think that those who are the most upset about the concept of transgenderism, have not ever met...and I mean, REALLY met, as in, at least had a serious face to face conversation and interacted for more than the briefest of encounters with, an actual trans person. It's easy to be freaked out about an idea, when you have not yet had cause to see the humanity connected to it and it's still abstract.
Just like I think that as gay people have been more visible in society in recent decades (my own living memory) people's discomfort about them has diminished. It's like oh...they're just people. Some are more good or bad, like any people. I encountered one in the wild and nothing terrible happened. Alright. Not as scary as I thought! It's easier to really hate an idea than it is to hate a person standing in front of you. Unless you're just a nasty piece of work, yourself.
The whole bathroom thing...I wonder how much of the alarm about that is from women (some, I know) and how much is from the straight cis guys who feel like protecting the wimminfolk is some kind of a sacred duty for them? You know, the ones you can only get to listen to a woman's concern if you point out that it affects women they might care about specifically? Oddly, the one man who was most devoted to the idea of ever being my "protector" was also the only man I've ever actually been afraid of. Funny little bit of projection, that...
But I have shared a public restroom at a bar with a drag queen, even knowing they aren't necessarily even trans (and I don't think that this one was, she was just in costume and persona for a performance) and I did not feel any concern. Other than how much of a scrub I looked like since I have nowhere near the makeup skills, and don't even wear any, standing next to this sparkling rainbow princess at the sinks...lol! But I complimented her eyeshadow and she complimented my top, and we got on with our lives. Hell, I've gone into men's restrooms during concerts at bars when there was a long line for the ladies'. And I'm a tiny woman who has no fighting skills at all, and was of course completely unarmed. No way to defend myself from all of the loose wieners in there! Oh dear lord! But...turns out, everybody was just there to pee.
I mean when it comes to real threats to our safety, I strongly, STRONGLY believe that most people are good people who don't mean us harm. And the few who are not good people who do mean us harm? They could be anywhere. They don't follow the rules, they don't respect a sign on a wall, they don't need to put on a dress to go try to do something awful to someone. They are already fully prepared to throw society's rules out the window, since a much more solid one is "don't attack or harass other people." I wouldn't have let my sons go into any public restroom when they were little by themselves, as they got a little older I did let them go into the men's room but only if they both went together and waited for one another. Random creepers can be anybody anywhere. If you are expecting them to wear outlandish clothing and be obvious, then you're just being stupid.
And I've said about drag queen story hour stuff that my concern has zip to do with any of them being "groomers" and is SOLELY centered on how much motivation there is to be pushing a kind of activism and using kids to do it. If the whole point is to cause a stir in the community by upsetting people, then I see a potential for line crossing in efforts to be shocking. Wearing a dress is not, to me, crossing that line. But if sufficient drama doesn't ensue, so one kicks it up a notch and starts reading objectionable material, using inappropriate language, or behaving overtly sexually around kids for the "shock value" then we're getting into bad territory. I worry about the penchant for high drama more than the dress.
But I also keep saying, GWAR shows have been mostly all ages for decades and I've seen small kids in peril in the pit, being crowd surfed, in an audience for a show that features over the top depiction of gore and maiming and sodomy and dead babies and naked (though fake rubber costume characters) bodies and...if it's offensive to anyone, they have done it. It's their whole shtick. I have seen them many times, and I enjoy their shows, but why is a 6 year old allowed to be there? I've never agreed with that. But I've just shaken my head at the poor judgment of the parents.
I often think that those who are the most upset about the concept of transgenderism, have not ever met...and I mean, REALLY met, as in, at least had a serious face to face conversation and interacted for more than the briefest of encounters with, an actual trans person. It's easy to be freaked out about an idea, when you have not yet had cause to see the humanity connected to it and it's still abstract.
Just like I think that as gay people have been more visible in society in recent decades (my own living memory) people's discomfort about them has diminished. It's like oh...they're just people. Some are more good or bad, like any people. I encountered one in the wild and nothing terrible happened. Alright. Not as scary as I thought! It's easier to really hate an idea than it is to hate a person standing in front of you. Unless you're just a nasty piece of work, yourself.
The whole bathroom thing...I wonder how much of the alarm about that is from women (some, I know) and how much is from the straight cis guys who feel like protecting the wimminfolk is some kind of a sacred duty for them? You know, the ones you can only get to listen to a woman's concern if you point out that it affects women they might care about specifically? Oddly, the one man who was most devoted to the idea of ever being my "protector" was also the only man I've ever actually been afraid of. Funny little bit of projection, that...
And there's a lot of emotions going on around the whole bathroom thing--I have a cis, female friend who's very tall and has short hair, and she's been accosted in the ladies' room by other women who are policing that she doesn't belong there. The reactivity isn't helping anyone.
As for gender and gender identity, it is going to be compelling how our knowledge of gender will develop over time. My friend's wife, is a very butch lesbian (and that is the term she would use to describe herself,) but she's not trans. She considers herself a woman, even though her outward presentation is not at all feminine. Where the line is between the folks who believe that their bodies are wrong and those who are content with presenting themselves as they are most comfortable will be interesting to discover.
I think there are basically two kinds of Transgender people. The first kind is like almost everyone else, trying to live their lives, pay their bills, and find something good to read or watch on TV. They could care less whether gender is a social construct or not.
The other kind is militant, holds Day Of Vengeance rallies, throws tomato juice on feminists they don't like, and gets teenagers banned from Pokemon tournaments for drawing a blank when asked for their pronouns. But this kind of militant exists all across the spectrum and always gets the headlines. Most of the time, the militants are shamed or shunned by us in the mainstream.
Hello, all. Just interested in a calm and civil discourse around this topic, if that's possible these days. I haven't decided my own opinion on this, so I'm just looking to be convinced by rational arguments.
Is gender a social concept, distinct from the biological concept of sex? Or is it just a synonym for biological sex?
Meaning, if this framework is accepted as valid, then sex would be referring to the concept that's assigned and binary and biological and physical- in terms of male/female. So, you can't identify as the opposite sex.
And gender, within that framework, would be the more social-realm type of concept of being a man/woman/boy/girl, in terms of identity/behavior/roles in society, etc.
I don't know my opinion on this, so I'd like to hear some arguments. Let's be respectful and descriptive in our arguments and avoid snarky one-liners and such. (You have plenty of threads for that in the Politics forum.)
Thanks!
To answer the bolded, it depends on whether you are using the historical definition, or the newer one. Historically, sex and gender were synonymous. To be sure, anyone can find articles online that talk about how gender was "always" a social construct, but in my 60+ years of life, I can guarantee that every time I encountered the word gender, it meant sex, until the past few years.
Today it's difficult to know what a person means when they use the word. If someone my age or older says gender, they probably still mean sex. But if it's being used by younger people, especially in the context of social justice, of transgenderism, or of self-expression, then it has a new, less clear definition, that can vary from user to user. From what I can tell, gender is now often used as a word to sum up the personality/temperament/preference a person has for things stereotypically considered masculine or feminine.
Unfortunately, today's vagueness of the word renders it ineffectual in communicating meaningful information.
There are many, many instances where knowing a person's biological sex is important (in healthcare, in selecting a potential mate or dating partner, admittance into sex-segregated schools/teams/organizations, etc). There are not that many instances where it is important to know one's preference for stereotypically masculine vs feminine things. But it is the latter that is getting the most attention today. And it is the latter that is being used to categorize people into groups (like "women's sports") when categorizing by biological sex is the only appropriate division.
I think it is essential that clear-cut definitions be agreed upon by The Powers That Be for words like gender, man, woman, male and female.
To answer the bolded, it depends on whether you are using the historical definition, or the newer one. Historically, sex and gender were synonymous. To be sure, anyone can find articles online that talk about how gender was "always" a social construct, but in my 60+ years of life, I can guarantee that every time I encountered the word gender, it meant sex, until the past few years.
Today it's difficult to know what a person means when they use the word. If someone my age or older says gender, they probably still mean sex. But if it's being used by younger people, especially in the context of social justice, of transgenderism, or of self-expression, then it has a new, less clear definition, that can vary from user to user. From what I can tell, gender is now often used as a word to sum up the personality/temperament/preference a person has for things stereotypically considered masculine or feminine.
Unfortunately, today's vagueness of the word renders it ineffectual in communicating meaningful information.
There are many, many instances where knowing a person's biological sex is important (in healthcare, in selecting a potential mate or dating partner, admittance into sex-segregated schools/teams/organizations, etc). There are not that many instances where it is important to know one's preference for stereotypically masculine vs feminine things. But it is the latter that is getting the most attention today. And it is the latter that is being used to categorize people into groups (like "women's sports") when categorizing by biological sex is the only appropriate division.
I think it is essential that clear-cut definitions be agreed upon by The Powers That Be for words like gender, man, woman, male and female.
I still don’t think that answers the question. Sex is a constant. You are born XY or XX, or maybe XXY or just X. A biological male in 1200 would have been XY and a biological male born today would also be XY, for example.
Aspects of gender changed over the years, and even among cultures. What is stereotypically feminine now might have been masculine in previous centuries. In 17th century Europe, men tended to wear wigs, makeup, heels, and stockings with lots of lace and frills. Popular colors for men are colors today often thought of as feminine. Jobs have also changed. Kitchen workers on large estates used to be women, but now the profession is dominated by men. Traditionally, women provided most of the healthcare and healing in a community and it was only within recent centuries that men took over, and now women are taking over again. Men used to do clerical jobs within an office setting, but that’s now mostly women. These days, there are many cultures where traditional clothes for men include skirts or dresses. For example, both Japanese men and women wear kimono/yukata.
Realistically, the distinction needs to occur only in a few places. In healthcare, it is important because certain problems can be missed if you don’t specify your sex. For example, you can still have endometriosis after bottom surgery, since just removing the uterus doesn’t always solve the problem. For example, I think a friend’s mom’s main symptom was nose bleeds- the growths can really occur anywhere, but no one is going to know to look for it if you don’t specify that you at some point menstruated.
So if gender is distinct from the biological concept of sex then what is gender and why do we even need that concept at all? To say that a biological male is really a female just because he acts feminine or feels like a female makes no sense. I've known many gay men who were extremely feminine and acted just like you'd expect a woman to act yet they identified as men and I saw them as men. To say that someone is a certain thing just because they feel like that thing or act like that thing is ridiculous. If a person is 100 pounds overweight and identifies as thin then you would say they are delusional. So why would a man who has male sex organs and XY chromosomes but identifies as a woman not also be delusional?
I often think that those who are the most upset about the concept of transgenderism, have not ever met...and I mean, REALLY met, as in, at least had a serious face to face conversation and interacted for more than the briefest of encounters with, an actual trans person. It's easy to be freaked out about an idea, when you have not yet had cause to see the humanity connected to it and it's still abstract.
I did and many times. Part of my job. And, location. Here, in PacNW, and, particularly, after ten yrs in Seattle, I was immersed into that environment. Even where I practice now, which is very rural area, I keep seeing that particular segment of population, teens included.
In this country best traditions, I'll keep my impression to myself.
If you want to, you may look into Vedas and their definition of why a female aspect is manifested in male body and vice versa. That, pretty much, tells it all.
So if gender is distinct from the biological concept of sex then what is gender and why do we even need that concept at all? To say that a biological male is really a female just because he acts feminine or feels like a female makes no sense. I've known many gay men who were extremely feminine and acted just like you'd expect a woman to act yet they identified as men and I saw them as men. To say that someone is a certain thing just because they feel like that thing or act like that thing is ridiculous. If a person is 100 pounds overweight and identifies as thin then you would say they are delusional. So why would a man who has male sex organs and XY chromosomes but identifies as a woman not also be delusional?
Basically what the "gender artists" or "gender benders" are promoting is the enabling of psychosis or mass gaslighting. There is no more reason I can fathom for considering a person with male parts to be female than considering the flag of Ukraine to be red and white, or the U.S. flag to be purple, black and yellow. We do not give that kind of deference to color-blind people.
I still don’t think that answers the question. Sex is a constant. You are born XY or XX, or maybe XXY or just X. A biological male in 1200 would have been XY and a biological male born today would also be XY, for example.
Aspects of gender changed over the years, and even among cultures. What is stereotypically feminine now might have been masculine in previous centuries. In 17th century Europe, men tended to wear wigs, makeup, heels, and stockings with lots of lace and frills. Popular colors for men are colors today often thought of as feminine. Jobs have also changed. Kitchen workers on large estates used to be women, but now the profession is dominated by men. Traditionally, women provided most of the healthcare and healing in a community and it was only within recent centuries that men took over, and now women are taking over again. Men used to do clerical jobs within an office setting, but that’s now mostly women. These days, there are many cultures where traditional clothes for men include skirts or dresses. For example, both Japanese men and women wear kimono/yukata.
Realistically, the distinction needs to occur only in a few places. In healthcare, it is important because certain problems can be missed if you don’t specify your sex. For example, you can still have endometriosis after bottom surgery, since just removing the uterus doesn’t always solve the problem. For example, I think a friend’s mom’s main symptom was nose bleeds- the growths can really occur anywhere, but no one is going to know to look for it if you don’t specify that you at some point menstruated.
Yes, I answered the question. Did I clear up every possible confusion over what the new, vague definition of "gender" means? No, that's not possible.
You elaborated on some details about what is considered "stereotypically" female and male. Excellent points, which support the notion that femininity and masculinity (at least *some* aspects) are social constructs. I agree, of course, that biological sex is a constant.
I have no idea why "gender" (the new definition) has become such a huge deal. We don't concern ourselves with people's other personality traits, and create whole new categories for them. We don't let people choose their restrooms, sports teams, or pronouns based on whether they are introverted, nature-loving, philosophizing, clean freaks. Why do we now let people choose restrooms, sports teams, and pronouns based on how they like to dress, wear their hair, and "feel" in terms of femininity/masculinity?
I'd be fine to rid our language of the word "gender" altogether (as it no longer has clear meaning), separate restrooms, sports teams, etc, by biological sex, and remove the social stigmas of what masculinity and femininity look like. Hopefully those things (especially the last) would eliminate the pressure some people feel to "fit in," to the point of hormonally and surgically altering their body (often leaving them sterile and unable to function sexually, in addition to a host of other health issues).
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