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... Friends are good, but sometimes friends can drift apart as lives change. They are for fair weather and fun times, not long illnesses or unpleasant tasks. Family seems more "obligated" to stand by us. ...
That is a cultural trope, and in my opinion, a gravely unfortunate ones. What is family? The mere accident of genetics. But friends are chosen volitionally and intentionally. I wish the society didn't place family on such a pedestal, and instead gave more primacy to friendships.
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Originally Posted by saibot
... I think some of those comments that seem pushy are coming from people who mean well and mention the "lonely" aspect because it seems less rude than "you're getting up there and running out of time."
Even today, our society pushes reproduction as an overwhelming positive, marginalizing those who are disinclined to reproduce. It more acutely affects women, because women are more obviously "reproductive"... but it also affects men. A disgusting bias, in my opinion... but while we're making progress, it will take several generations to truly remove the pro-natalist bias.
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Originally Posted by rummage
The idea of creating additional humans so when you get old you expect them to help you is selfish and sick.
Exactly. But we've packaged it as some kind of grand boon, nay even a duty.
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Originally Posted by stormgal
...I see that many conservative males post videos on YouTube about women needing to marry and have children otherwise they’re going to wind up like the 40+ year old woman (of which I am), alone, bored and without meaning (of which me and many others like me are not). ..
It's a way of lashing-out, in a more "conservative" couching of their frustrations at not getting a date.
I'm a 37 year old guy with no kids. It's unlikely I'll ever have them. I've gotten some of this kind of thing from my parents, but there's no guarantee that your kids would or even could be able to take care of you.
My grandmother is 87. She's frail, gets around on a walker, but is in otherwise decent shape for an 87 year old. My aunt is her primary caregiver - she's 62, but seems 72. My mom is 66 and not in good shape herself. My grandmother was in much better shape throughout her 70s than her daughters are in their 60s.
Realistically, they can't physically help my grandmother. My mom and dad are not well off financially - at 66, he's still working because they need the money, so that avenue really isn't available either. The best thing they can do is try to assist my grandmother enough so she can stay in her own home.
We're from and live in northeast TN. My house is going on the market next year. I have no intentions of remaining in this immediate area. There isn't much in the way of work here. I'm moving about an hour and a half to two hours away. If the family wants to remain here and get to the point where they can't take care of themselves, they're going to be on their own. I can't drive myself into the poorhouse to take care of them because they were too stupid to relocate.
That is a cultural trope, and in my opinion, a gravely unfortunate ones. What is family? The mere accident of genetics. But friends are chosen volitionally and intentionally. I wish the society didn't place family on such a pedestal, and instead gave more primacy to friendships.
Family is so much more than that. It is continuing the human species for one small thing.
It's also love and commitment for most. Would you choose a friend who is not as smart as you? Someone who is poor? Mentally ill or disabled? Family members will be there for them.
Why should society value friendships more? You're simply choosing someone that fits your criteria for a friend. Families are work. We are raising babies to adulthood, no matter what the challenges may be. And most of the time we love and care for our family no matter what problems they face.
I really don't care at all if people choose to be childless but I don't understand why anyone would put the institution of family down.
Family is so much more than that. It is continuing the human species for one small thing.
It's also love and commitment for most. Would you choose a friend who is not as smart as you? Someone who is poor? Mentally ill or disabled? Family members will be there for them.
Why should society value friendships more? You're simply choosing someone that fits your criteria for a friend. Families are work. We are raising babies to adulthood, no matter what the challenges may be. And most of the time we love and care for our family no matter what problems they face.
I really don't care at all if people choose to be childless but I don't understand why anyone would put the institution of family down.
Part of the reason why this doesn't work well for me is this...
The family members I've had who were less "I will be there for you because I enjoy your presence in my life" and more on the side of "I feel an obligation or sense of duty because of this role or relation between us"...(Until I don't, and over time more distance and boundaries do come into play)... It wasn't that they were simply less smart or lucky or well off through no fault of their own. The reason I did not treasure those relationships were in the CHOICES that they made in how they treated me.
Neglecting, abandoning, using, abusing, manipulating, taking advantage. Every single one. And most people I speak to about one's right to place boundaries or sever ties with someone who treats you badly, say, "well of course, in THOSE situations..." But people act like it's rare, and it isn't rare. And it never was rare. People can be crap to each other. And those who are, do not deserve to have the care and goodwill of others.
Those who elevate friends to "chosen family" status and do not cling to their families of origin or the families they build of spouse and kids necessarily...a whooooole lot of them/us were treated very badly. And the people in the histories of my family who did stick with the family bonds regardless, they were just putting up with terrible treatment.
That, I contend, is the mental shift that's taking place. People do not feel obligated to sit there and take abuse anymore. And those who used to hold more power to be abusive to others, upon realizing that they are not entitled to literal or figurative punching bags in their lives, are throwing a hissy fit about it.
Tough crap.
So yeah, I will choose people who meet my criteria for friends. I married one. And there are others whom I consider to be chosen family, who will benefit from close bonds with me. And if my sons continue to be the way they've been thus far and don't mature into functional and decent adults, then I will find some unrelated person to leave an inheritance to, as well. Blood alone does not obligate me to anything.
And I am not the first person in my family to think this way. My Great Aunt, who was probably the only known relative I truly and deeply respect, she put some distance and boundaries between herself and her sister and others. She didn't want to be bogged down in drama and poor life choices, guilt or manipulation. And she met a young man who was the son of some friends and she paid for his college education because she saw potential in him. She didn't have kids, but she didn't leave her money to family, she bequeathed it to causes she cared about. Good for her.
The other thing that doesn't make sense about this claim, is that women tend to be better at building supportive social networks than men are. My Great Aunt was widowed in her 60s and had no kids. She did a lot of volunteerism and philanthropy and was super friendly with her neighbors. She had a much younger neighbor that she cultivated a close friendship with, who agreed to be her POA and to handle her estate stuff, so when she developed dementia, the neighbor was able to step in and handle everything pretty easily.
We can't assume that our spouse will stay or outlive us, and we can't assume that our kids will care for us...but we can make connections that have nothing to do with that.
My sister just lost her husband. She has made a lot of friends where she moved to recently but she say's it will never be the same as having a husband. It's a different kind of connection.
Sonic, I totally understand what you're saying and I know we can't control others. I should have said that we can only control our own choices on how committed we are to family.
I've stuck by and fought for family members who went through drug addiction and right now a grandchild with severe mental illness. She will never have a friend and I could choose to walk away but I didn't. I still love her.
I'm sure my story won't encourage the OP to have kids either.
My sister just lost her husband. She has made a lot of friends where she moved to recently but she say's it will never be the same as having a husband. It's a different kind of connection.
Well of course if you lose a loved one, you can't just substitute them with someone else and be all good. Human beings are not fungible like that anyways. If my best friend died, I would not say, "well I still have my husband so it's fine" either.
But someone who never had a spouse, or someone who is divorced... I know a lot of middle aged and older women who really are living very happy lives without a husband. Well, my Aunt who was widowed did, too, but their marriage had cooled a great deal by the time he passed. No, I'm just saying that such women usually are not miserably isolated. I have seen more older men who are alone be very isolated if they don't have a spouse, sometimes to an extent that it really messes up their mental health.
My husband and I are pretty sure that the only reason his father stayed among the living after his wife passed away, was that she left behind her beloved cat, and he felt he had to care for her. He was otherwise very isolated. He had been put on multiple prescriptions for depression.
Do you think that your sister will struggle to go on living? Or do you think that she will be OK? I was never suggesting that friends are "the same" as the connection with a spouse, but having them can certainly help you cope and heal from grief, and keep your mental health on something of an even keel. And depending on the friendships, they can be supportive in a lot of practical ways, too. Like if I ever needed transport to a medical procedure (like you do with anything requiring general anesthesia) and I didn't have my husband here, once I'm back in Colorado I have a number of friends I could count on for that.
I'm pretty much just saying that this "you'll be sorry when you're all alone in old age" thing...that's more a problem for men than it tends to be for women. Just in a very general sense.
Sonic, I totally understand what you're saying and I know we can't control others. I should have said that we can only control our own choices on how committed we are to family.
I've stuck by and fought for family members who went through drug addiction and right now a grandchild with severe mental illness. She will never have a friend and I could choose to walk away but I didn't. I still love her.
I'm sure my story won't encourage the OP to have kids either.
True! But again, as I want to be quite clear that I am not quite anti-natalist...I just believe in people having their freedoms, and I shame no one's choices...
Like that's what makes it admirable. You don't do this because you HAVE to. You do it because your heart tells you it is right and good.
I mean, I've really stuck my neck out for years for my youngest son, and he's made some very bad life choices. But I keep helping him, it's just a question of how best to do that...so that I'm not totally sacrificing my own wellbeing, and the help I'm giving is meaningful and it counts, and I can look myself in the mirror and sleep OK at night. Sometimes it's all you can do.
But that's why having a family is, like I said...it's either foolishness or courage or both. Both, I think, maybe in my case. The foolish courage of youth that says, "I can handle everything! I have all of forever ahead of me to fix any mistakes made today, so no need to worry about consequences and the future! No one can tell me what to do! It'll be fine!" lol
They say that if everyone waited until they were ready, to have kids, no one would ever have kids.
Im a guy, married and have kids but would prefer to grow old alone if I live that long. Comments to others suggesting the way they will feel if they dont do something should be kept silent in my opinion. Imagine taking their advice and marrying the first person that comes along...instead of being lonely, now there's a chance of being miserable too. Even if you do find the right spouse, theres a chance that they could die before you and you would still be lonely.
Exactly. My cousin married a guy in middle age, years after a divorce, basically because he was the only one who expressed interest, and she didn't want to grow old alone. That's what she said. But he was 15 years older than her, and not in good health at the time. He passed away a year ago, so she's alone anyway in her 60's. Still going to grow old alone.
Are women still threatened with "growing old and lonely"? I thought that behavior went the way of the dodo bird decades ago. Where is this going on: mainly in conservative regions of the country? I didn't join the thread earlier on, because I couldn't relate to the premise it's based on. Seems like an anachronism.
I wish we could stop with the blanket statement that "women are good at making social connections and men aren't." We're all individuals with different personalities. It would be more accurate - but still a worthless generalization - to say extroverts are and introverts aren't, and that's not a gender issue.
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