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Old 02-07-2009, 02:37 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
15,298 posts, read 11,055,992 times
Reputation: 12037

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In a post petroleum world, water based transportation will be vital to maintain prosperity. Though slow, it's the cheapest, in fuel consumed, per ton moved. Throughout history, every great civilization relied upon water based transportation for trade and travel.

Before the Oil Age, America had dabbled in canal building, but once the railroads came into the picture, many canals were abandoned. Due to the unusual nature of private ownership (and predatory competition), competing systems were destroyed by their successors, unlike the rest of the world.

Canals were destroyed in favor of railroad companies. Urban railroads were destroyed in favor of automobiles and bus companies. And now, America has very few alternatives to petroleum based transportation.

Assuming that alternatives to petroleum never reach the scale that can replace the power lost to the finale of oil, water transportation may become a necessity for economic survival. (Especially in the latter half of the 21st century)

Savvy investors might look into buying land on or near water transport corridors (or potential corridors - hint hint).

What river would benefit immensely by engineering?

The Susquehanna river.

Let's dam the Susquehanna river - build locks - make it navigable from the Chesapeake Bay to upstate New York, and to mid Pennsylvania (West Branch).
- - Commercial transportation
- - Revitalize rust belt cities
- - Recreation
- - Riverboat vacations
- - Liveaboards / mobile labor housing
- - Flood control

(In addition, tributaries can be dammed for hydroelectric power - double benefit.)

Imagine one of those nice placid lakes on the shore of Wilkes-Barre and Kingston. With extensive network of dams, the levees could be torn down and a riverside (lakeside?) park could run for miles.

Frankly, manufacturing and light industry has not saved Wyoming Valley. Why not consider making it an Amusement Park / Vacation spot for the jaded BosWash crowd?

Rebuild the whole infrastructure, while you're at it.

GIGANTIC VISION (of the Dammed)

[1] Navigable waterway - back up transit corridor - just in case. Based on channel depth and width, make locks of suitable size.
[2] Surplus water storage - in case of long term drought - or sell to the desert west (just kidding)
[3] Flood control - dam tributaries (think TVA) - add hydropower
[4] Riverside Tourist Attraction - boating, fishing, museums, aquarium (maybe abutting the river, and have a direct view into it), amusement park, performance stages, modest hotels (don't destroy the view by allowing monster blights like at Panama Beach, Florida)
[5] Electrified rail - heavy rail, commuter rail, interurban, streetcars, cog railway (up steep mountains), suspended cable cars, funicular to Prospect Rock / Laurel run. Grand plan - connect moderate or high speed rail lines to Binghamton, NYC, Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Baltimore.
[6] Economic development - ask any Realtor what the price premium is for property with a waterfront and boat dock. Then ask the local government how much they can tax those premium homesites. Shucks, any accomplished grifter could get his cronies all manner of prime real estate.
Measure the length of the Susquehanna, and imagine it as one big cash cow, for residential, commercial, and environmental enhancement. And for those with even greedier / grandiose visions, wherever there is a broad "flood plain", one can excavate boat canals (not unlike Florida, which has a man made "coastline" that is probably 100 x greater than natural).
Wilkes-Barre once had a canal where Pennsylvania Avenue is, if I recall. Imagine if that was a waterway again, and lined with condos and boat docks?
[7] Build ecologically friendly storm sewer segregated from black water sewer, and a state of the art waste management system. (Ask Disney mgmt for advice)
[8] Central and NE PA becomes the hot new place for that "second" home, hundreds of miles of undeveloped waterfront building sites, aquatic service industry potentials, entertainment, recreation, parkland and so forth.
[9] Revitalize and restore architecturally interesting areas. Have tours.
[10] Once the waterfront is established and the need arises for mass transit, it will be self evident that the electrified rail transit system will be in demand. (No, oil prices aren't ever coming down. Get over it.)
[11] Use the mountains for ultimate downhill skateboard parks, street luges, luges (see Austria for winter / summer versions with powered tows), and build scenic overlooks and picnic areas.
[12] Develop aquaculture - fish and seafood farming.

Ah... to dream.

For inspiration:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)
Grand Canal - the longest ancient canal or artificial river in the world.

List of canals in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are 14,932 km of waterways in France, of which 6,969 km are heavily traveled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States
List of canals in the U.S.A.

Ohio and Erie Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ohio Canal or Ohio and Erie Canal was a canal constructed in the early 1800s, which connected Akron, Summit County with the Cuyahoga River near the Cuyahoga's mouth on Lake Erie in Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, and a few years later, with the Ohio River near Portsmouth, Tuscarawas County, and then connections to other canal systems in Pennsylvania and Ohio.
This was the canal referenced in the movie "How the West Was Won", that linked the Mississippi River, via the Ohio River, to Lake Erie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States
History of canals in the U.S.A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_..._United_States
The inland waterways of the United States include over 25,000 miles (40000 km) of navigable waters.

Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canals, in general.
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Old 02-07-2009, 01:19 PM
 
Location: wilkes-barre
1,973 posts, read 4,802,854 times
Reputation: 1001
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
In a post petroleum world, water based transportation will be vital to maintain prosperity. Though slow, it's the cheapest, in fuel consumed, per ton moved. Throughout history, every great civilization relied upon water based transportation for trade and travel.

Before the Oil Age, America had dabbled in canal building, but once the railroads came into the picture, many canals were abandoned. Due to the unusual nature of private ownership (and predatory competition), competing systems were destroyed by their successors, unlike the rest of the world.

Canals were destroyed in favor of railroad companies. Urban railroads were destroyed in favor of automobiles and bus companies. And now, America has very few alternatives to petroleum based transportation.

Assuming that alternatives to petroleum never reach the scale that can replace the power lost to the finale of oil, water transportation may become a necessity for economic survival. (Especially in the latter half of the 21st century)

Savvy investors might look into buying land on or near water transport corridors (or potential corridors - hint hint).

What river would benefit immensely by engineering?

The Susquehanna river.

Let's dam the Susquehanna river - build locks - make it navigable from the Chesapeake Bay to upstate New York, and to mid Pennsylvania (West Branch).
- - Commercial transportation
- - Revitalize rust belt cities
- - Recreation
- - Riverboat vacations
- - Liveaboards / mobile labor housing
- - Flood control

(In addition, tributaries can be dammed for hydroelectric power - double benefit.)

Imagine one of those nice placid lakes on the shore of Wilkes-Barre and Kingston. With extensive network of dams, the levees could be torn down and a riverside (lakeside?) park could run for miles.

Frankly, manufacturing and light industry has not saved Wyoming Valley. Why not consider making it an Amusement Park / Vacation spot for the jaded BosWash crowd?

Rebuild the whole infrastructure, while you're at it.

GIGANTIC VISION (of the Dammed)

[1] Navigable waterway - back up transit corridor - just in case. Based on channel depth and width, make locks of suitable size.
[2] Surplus water storage - in case of long term drought - or sell to the desert west (just kidding)
[3] Flood control - dam tributaries (think TVA) - add hydropower
[4] Riverside Tourist Attraction - boating, fishing, museums, aquarium (maybe abutting the river, and have a direct view into it), amusement park, performance stages, modest hotels (don't destroy the view by allowing monster blights like at Panama Beach, Florida)
[5] Electrified rail - heavy rail, commuter rail, interurban, streetcars, cog railway (up steep mountains), suspended cable cars, funicular to Prospect Rock / Laurel run. Grand plan - connect moderate or high speed rail lines to Binghamton, NYC, Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Baltimore.
[6] Economic development - ask any Realtor what the price premium is for property with a waterfront and boat dock. Then ask the local government how much they can tax those premium homesites. Shucks, any accomplished grifter could get his cronies all manner of prime real estate.
Measure the length of the Susquehanna, and imagine it as one big cash cow, for residential, commercial, and environmental enhancement. And for those with even greedier / grandiose visions, wherever there is a broad "flood plain", one can excavate boat canals (not unlike Florida, which has a man made "coastline" that is probably 100 x greater than natural).
Wilkes-Barre once had a canal where Pennsylvania Avenue is, if I recall. Imagine if that was a waterway again, and lined with condos and boat docks?
[7] Build ecologically friendly storm sewer segregated from black water sewer, and a state of the art waste management system. (Ask Disney mgmt for advice)
[8] Central and NE PA becomes the hot new place for that "second" home, hundreds of miles of undeveloped waterfront building sites, aquatic service industry potentials, entertainment, recreation, parkland and so forth.
[9] Revitalize and restore architecturally interesting areas. Have tours.
[10] Once the waterfront is established and the need arises for mass transit, it will be self evident that the electrified rail transit system will be in demand. (No, oil prices aren't ever coming down. Get over it.)
[11] Use the mountains for ultimate downhill skateboard parks, street luges, luges (see Austria for winter / summer versions with powered tows), and build scenic overlooks and picnic areas.
[12] Develop aquaculture - fish and seafood farming.

Ah... to dream.

For inspiration:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)
Grand Canal - the longest ancient canal or artificial river in the world.

List of canals in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are 14,932 km of waterways in France, of which 6,969 km are heavily traveled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States
List of canals in the U.S.A.

Ohio and Erie Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ohio Canal or Ohio and Erie Canal was a canal constructed in the early 1800s, which connected Akron, Summit County with the Cuyahoga River near the Cuyahoga's mouth on Lake Erie in Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, and a few years later, with the Ohio River near Portsmouth, Tuscarawas County, and then connections to other canal systems in Pennsylvania and Ohio.
This was the canal referenced in the movie "How the West Was Won", that linked the Mississippi River, via the Ohio River, to Lake Erie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States
History of canals in the U.S.A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_..._United_States
The inland waterways of the United States include over 25,000 miles (40000 km) of navigable waters.

Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canals, in general.
Very good idea! Too bad we don't have an extra couple billion dollars laying around to pay for it. Maybe we can get a loan from Goldman Sach's now that they have about half of all the money in the U.S treasury at thier disposal do to the "bailout". Why don't you seriously consider e-mailing this to Congressman Paul Kanjorski. It is worth a shot.
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Old 02-07-2009, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Drama Central
4,083 posts, read 8,356,671 times
Reputation: 1891
Kanjorski already talked about damming the river......Dams are not good for the river and I would hate to see the world class smallmouth fishing that the river provides disappear. The river is a huge natural resource for tourism, its just not promoted like the Delaware is. Which is a good and a bad thing for our area. More pressure on the river...Not good....More tourism dollars.......Good

Its a very fine line when the pressure out weighs the dollar......A line that is never paid attention to.

The Susquehanna in my mind is a nicer river then the Delaware and it see little traffic in comparison. Leave it alone or we will lose it. Protect it and maintain it and it will provide.
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Old 02-07-2009, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
15,298 posts, read 11,055,992 times
Reputation: 12037
Quote:
Originally Posted by weluvpa View Post
Kanjorski already talked about damming the river......Dams are not good for the river and I would hate to see the world class smallmouth fishing that the river provides disappear. The river is a huge natural resource for tourism, its just not promoted like the Delaware is. Which is a good and a bad thing for our area. More pressure on the river...Not good....More tourism dollars.......Good

Its a very fine line when the pressure out weighs the dollar......A line that is never paid attention to.

The Susquehanna in my mind is a nicer river then the Delaware and it see little traffic in comparison. Leave it alone or we will lose it. Protect it and maintain it and it will provide.
Can you define what is "bad" about a dam?
Is environmental preservation (static) more desirable than environmental expansion (dynamic)?
Would a network of man-made lakes and locks really "destroy" the river ecology?

Have you ever visited the "tame" Tennessee river?
I have, and its banks are just indescribable with wetland flora and fauna. I saw cranes and ducks and bountiful plantlife.
Methinks that "Green Think" lacks long term think. Engineering a waterway is what "natural" beavers do. Should we legislate the end of all beaver dams, for "environmental protection"?
I apologize for the snarky retort. But we have to change our thinking! Environmental stagnation is suicidal.
We need to increase the life bearing volume of our finite planet, not restrain it to some "static" view imposed by partisan politicians and brain dead bureaucrats.
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Old 02-07-2009, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
15,298 posts, read 11,055,992 times
Reputation: 12037
Quote:
Originally Posted by W-B proud View Post
Very good idea! Too bad we don't have an extra couple billion dollars laying around to pay for it. Maybe we can get a loan from Goldman Sach's now that they have about half of all the money in the U.S treasury at thier disposal do to the "bailout".
Why do you assume that money is needed?

Money is a nothing, an abstraction for the marketplace.
All the money in the world will not buy that which is not in the marketplace.

If the people living in the Susquehanna watershed cooperatively joined forces and invested their sweat and so forth, they could do it, whether or not the "gubmint" gave money or not.

There are not enough prisons nor armed military to stop a people who share a dream and have the desire to move forward. Power to the people is not "beg public servants for permission and tax money stolen from others."

Oops... I forgot... we're talking about the Socialist Paradise of NE Pennsylvania. My bad.
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Old 02-07-2009, 02:41 PM
 
Location: wilkes-barre
1,973 posts, read 4,802,854 times
Reputation: 1001
[quote=jetgraphics;7364631]Why do you assume that money is needed?

Money is a nothing, an abstraction for the marketplace.
All the money in the world will not buy that which is not in the marketplace.

If the people living in the Susquehanna watershed cooperatively joined forces and invested their sweat and so forth, they could do it, whether or not the "gubmint" gave money or not.

There are not enough prisons nor armed military to stop a people who share a dream and have the desire to move forward. Power to the people is not "beg public servants for permission and tax money stolen from others."

Oops... I forgot... we're talking about the Socialist Paradise of NE Pennsylvania. My bad.We cannot even organize ten people to show up at our courthouse to protest the terrible corruption and criminal behavior of our so called "leaders", but there were 7,250 people at the hockey game last night!...and they payed to go there! What makes you think tens of thousands of people will organize to completely overhaul the Susquahanna for free!?, who will pay for the earth moving equipment, the dredges, the engineering, the materials ect. That's a beautiful story for a Hollywood movie, but lets get real here. This is a complete pipe dream! You need at least a dozen superpowerful poloticians pulling the right strings and countless lobbyist working this out to even have any chance of this ever happening, and we just don't have a Kennedy representing NEPA. Sorry
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Old 02-07-2009, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Northeast Pa
182 posts, read 462,624 times
Reputation: 162
WOW!!

The environment is dynamic-ever changing.

What did the Tennessee river look like before the dams were built?
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Old 02-07-2009, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Drama Central
4,083 posts, read 8,356,671 times
Reputation: 1891
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Can you define what is "bad" about a dam?
Is environmental preservation (static) more desirable than environmental expansion (dynamic)?
Would a network of man-made lakes and locks really "destroy" the river ecology?

Have you ever visited the "tame" Tennessee river?
I have, and its banks are just indescribable with wetland flora and fauna. I saw cranes and ducks and bountiful plantlife.
Methinks that "Green Think" lacks long term think. Engineering a waterway is what "natural" beavers do. Should we legislate the end of all beaver dams, for "environmental protection"?
I apologize for the snarky retort. But we have to change our thinking! Environmental stagnation is suicidal.
We need to increase the life bearing volume of our finite planet, not restrain it to some "static" view imposed by partisan politicians and brain dead bureaucrats.

Building dams affects the hydrology, the terrestrial and aquatic systems of the river in a negative way and it would essentially change the ecosystem of the river. I don't think that destroying a river so people can have a place to waterski is worth it.
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Old 02-07-2009, 05:34 PM
 
703 posts, read 1,425,956 times
Reputation: 236
The Susquehanna is dammed in several places already.

I'm worried about the effects of damming the river at a location that was a Superfund site in the 1970's and still is pretty dirty today.
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
15,298 posts, read 11,055,992 times
Reputation: 12037
Quote:
Originally Posted by W-B proud View Post
We cannot even organize ten people to show up at our courthouse to protest the terrible corruption and criminal behavior of our so called "leaders", but there were 7,250 people at the hockey game last night!...and they payed to go there! What makes you think tens of thousands of people will organize to completely overhaul the Susquahanna for free!?, who will pay for the earth moving equipment, the dredges, the engineering, the materials ect. That's a beautiful story for a Hollywood movie, but lets get real here. This is a complete pipe dream! You need at least a dozen superpowerful poloticians pulling the right strings and countless lobbyist working this out to even have any chance of this ever happening, and we just don't have a Kennedy representing NEPA. Sorry
You have a point.
At least, with the hockey game, you get your money's worth.

Re: "Who will pay?"
What do you think taxes are? They're taken from tax payers.

You have been indoctrinated to believe in socialist government.
Government makes nothing but more government.
Government gives nothing but that which was taken from someone else.

So what would happen if a sizable majority of people pooled their time, labor and treasure to do something INCREDIBLE? Even if it opposed the "wishes" of the servant government, would it be worth it?

Re: Pipe Dream...
I think there was a similar situation where a renown power bloc was forced to surrender its power - way back in 1783 or 1784... it'll come to me, eventually.
"At the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people and they are truly the sovereigns of the country."
Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 Dall. 440, 463

"The people of the state, as the successors of its former sovereign, are entitled to all the rights which formerly belonged to the king by his own prerogative."
Lansing v. Smith, (1829) 4 Wendell 9, (NY)

If the people of NE PA can't stand up on their own two feet, and act like sovereigns, then you are correct, and such peons should scrabble about, begging for scraps tossed from Master's table.
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