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Old 04-02-2009, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,975 posts, read 16,395,045 times
Reputation: 4586

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
Not sure I understand you Greg. I will say that you work against yourself if you dont think things need to be redone.
The poor kids you think I want to starve would be much better off if we got those who dont need assistance off of it. Your socialist Heaven will never exist if huge chunks of the population get a free ride. Thats why socialism always fails. Theres always some group or other that gets the bennies without paying the freight & eventually the working class tosses the idea that they should feed the naton out the window.
Its actually you who prove my point by blindly labeling those who want reform as cruel instead of being reasonable with the ones making it happen. As long as thats the case, how can you expect the working class to willingly fund lives often better than they can afford themselves?
If you dont need aid you dont deserve it. If you are healthy you dont need it.
EXACTLY!

If a much smaller group is paying taxes, then how on earth will there be enough money to go around?
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,975 posts, read 16,395,045 times
Reputation: 4586
Some more solutions I have:

1. Either restore some value in high school diplomas or make higher education free and accessible to everyone.

2. Privatize social security and expand 401K's.
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,618 posts, read 86,598,945 times
Reputation: 36642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bagu View Post

Workers are FREE to save money and go into business for themselves instead of depending on others for a paycheck.
No they're not. Buy an old car and paint the word "TAXI" on the side and go park in front of the airport terminal.. See how many laws you have broken in the Last Bastion of Free Enterprise. Even in China, people have more rights to go into business for themselves than in the USA. In Louisiana, it is against the law to sell flowers on a street corner.

Do you have any idea now many people on welfare possess a skill that could be used to earn money, but they are prohibited by state, federal or local law from doing it? Child care is a perfect example.
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,417,275 times
Reputation: 560
It just comes down to who is responsible for an individual. For example, let's say there's a kid that comes from a low income home, he gets some education but drops out of high school to get a job at the age of 16. Now for whatever reason (medical bills, family/children, etc.) this person cannot afford to make ends meet and he cannot afford to go back to school, therefore he turns to welfare. Who has failed here, the individual or the state? Is the state responsible for making sure a citizen understands the value of a good education and receives one? Or is the individual responsible for their own actions and we'll have to deal with them accordingly?

I honestly would say that the state has failed the individual. We're supposed to have equal opportunity and free public education, but those do not go hand in hand. Public schools have huge variance in quality which is traced directly along the lines of property value. Thus those in lower income housing are disadvantaged from the start and to make up for it our government offers handouts... I don't know about you but I would much rather have my quality education then the ability to get some free money from the government. Fix education and you will see the number of welfare cases go down. Until then poor people will always blame other people and say they were never given a fair chance.
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,618 posts, read 86,598,945 times
Reputation: 36642
Ulnev, do you remember your childhood? Remember the "dumb kids" in third grade? It doesn't matter how much money you throw at the schools, there are always going to be those kids who are not intellectually or emotionally capable of grasping what is needed to get a median-wage income in adult life. Most of them came from poor families, which is a social condition that schools have no power to redress, but the department of welfare could.

When you give people money, they spend it. When they spend it, it trickles back to the rich. So if you take money from the rich and give it to the poor, it circles right back around to the rich again. That's why nations with strong welfare programs have strong economies.
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,417,275 times
Reputation: 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Ulnev, do you remember your childhood? Remember the "dumb kids" in third grade? It doesn't matter how much money you throw at the schools, there are always going to be those kids who are not intellectually or emotionally capable of grasping what is needed to get a median-wage income in adult life. Most of them came from poor families, which is a social condition that schools have no power to redress, but the department of welfare could.

When you give people money, they spend it. When they spend it, it trickles back to the rich. So if you take money from the rich and give it to the poor, it circles right back around to the rich again. That's why nations with strong welfare programs have strong economies.
Well again I am going to say that MY education was very good (around 92% graduation rate) and you're right. I have very little remorse for the "dumb" kids at my school, but they had a good opportunity. I am talking about the schools that have high drop out rates and trouble retaining good teachers, these are the schools that need help. Or do you believe that inner city schools are just populated by a 40-50% higher number of "dumb" kids???

I am not saying this will cure welfare, I am just saying that it will make it easier to weed out those that do not deserve it.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,618 posts, read 86,598,945 times
Reputation: 36642
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulnevrwalkalone View Post
Or do you believe that inner city schools are just populated by a 40-50% higher number of "dumb" kids???
I am saying that some inner city neighborhoods are populated by 40-50% kids from dysfunctional families below the poverty line, and the school cannot fix that. Those kids have little incentive because they look around their neighborhood and see people who DID graduate from high school, and are still sitting in the gutter, because the rich begrudge them so much as bus fare or a decent meal when times get tough.

Why is this so hard to grasp? Telling 50-million people what they (or their parents) should have done does absolutely nothing to address the problem that they (and their deprived children) are among us now.

The problem will not go away simply because a poster in this forum beats his chest and says "Those single moms should have gone to Harvard Medical School, like I did, and become a brain surgeon". Better answers are needed.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,975 posts, read 16,395,045 times
Reputation: 4586
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I am saying that some inner city neighborhoods are populated by 40-50% kids from dysfunctional families below the poverty line, and the school cannot fix that. Those kids have little incentive because they look around their neighborhood and see people who DID graduate from high school, and are still sitting in the gutter, because the rich begrudge them so much as bus fare or a decent meal when times get tough.

Why is this so hard to grasp? Telling 50-million people what they (or their parents) should have done does absolutely nothing to address the problem that they are among us now.
If the parents would actually care and do the right thing, a large part of this problem would go away. That's the thing....the parents do not care.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
857 posts, read 1,417,275 times
Reputation: 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I am saying that some inner city neighborhoods are populated by 40-50% kids from dysfunctional families below the poverty line, and the school cannot fix that. Those kids have little incentive because they look around their neighborhood and see people who DID graduate from high school, and are still sitting in the gutter, because the rich begrudge them so much as bus fare or a decent meal when times get tough.


Quote:
Why is this so hard to grasp? Telling 50-million people what they (or their parents) should have done does absolutely nothing to address the problem that they (and their deprived children) are among us now.
I am not worried about telling people what they should have done, I am saying what we should do now. I am not blaming anyone individually, but all of us together in failing to provide equal education but that is another argument really.

Quote:
The problem will not go away simply because a poster in this forum beats his chest and says "Those single moms should have gone to Harvard Medical School, like I did, and become a brain surgeon". Better answers are needed.
I can't tell if this is directed entirely at me or just posters here in general but again I am not blaming those who are a product of their environment. They had little chance of doing anything better. But if welfare makes us ok with how unequal our society is then I guess we're just going to have to keep it around .

Last edited by ulnevrwalkalone; 04-02-2009 at 10:29 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-02-2009, 11:55 AM
 
58,469 posts, read 26,794,988 times
Reputation: 14091
I worked for the telphone company in WASH, DC. 80% of the people I serviced were on welfare. We are not talking about unemployment here but, welfare.
I can tell you there is massive abuse of the system.
Welfare has been generational for 50 years or more. 15 year girls get pregnant, drop out of school just as their mother and grandmother did.

15 year old boys get an "attitude" and drop out.

These children never get "proper" parental training/teaching because their parent/s did not have any. There is nothing to pass on.

The boys, if the live long enough, become of age and are unemployable, can't speak english, can't add, can't take orders from a boss, etc.

The girls are trapped in an enviroment they can't see a way out of. Have kids, can't get a job, see boys above, have to extra burden of taking care of kids.

With a system like this they will always be a burden to society.

My solution. Every Government housing project has a community building. if not build one.
Make it mandatoty for the women attend "classes'" held at the site. These classes should be geared not only to earn a GED but, should also include ecconomics, personal hygene parenting, nutricianl etc. The thing their parent/s did not, could not pass on to them.

Rational schedules should be employed. What I mean is some women show up early to prepare breakfast for the whole body. Another group cleans up. Another group baby sits. Another group takes the courses. Each taking turns between work and classes. This done thru out the whole day through dinner.

The same goes for the men. While some men "work" to clean up the project, others are going to class just like the women. again working torward a GED. They should be taught maintainance procedures electrical, plumbing etc, and use their own residances as OJT (on the job traning).

If you do not attend the required classes, work assignments etc. you loose something. You welfare check is reduced or food stamps withheld, something. They need to be taught responsibility. Without it they will never be responsible.

Will this ever happen, I doubt it.
[SIZE=6]Example Of Socialism vs Capitalism[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=5]Think about this example of socialism vs Capitalism. It's an interesting way to explain the difference![/SIZE]
[SIZE=5][/SIZE]
[SIZE=5]An economics professor at [/SIZE][SIZE=5]Texas[/SIZE][SIZE=5] Tech said he had never failed a single student, but had once failed an entire class.[/SIZE][SIZE=5]

The class (students) insisted that socialism worked since no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism."

"All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A."

After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=5][/SIZE]
[SIZE=5]The students who had studied hard were upset while the students who had studied very little were happy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=5][/SIZE]
[SIZE=5]But, as the second test rolled around, the students who had studied little studied even less and the ones who had studied hard decided that since they couldn't make an A, they also studied less. The second test average was a D.[/SIZE][SIZE=5]

No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average grade was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame, and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings, and no one would study for anyone else.
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=5][/SIZE]
[SIZE=5]To their great surprise, all failed the course.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=5]The professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder people try to succeed the greater their reward (capitalism), but when a government takes all the reward away (socialism) no one will try or succeed.[/SIZE][SIZE=5]
[/SIZE]
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