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Well hell, If I am not required to work, I guess I will quit my job tomorrow and well.. Live off of you, like a parasite, or a leech, whichever you choose, but I will choose to be a lazy sob, and suck the money out of YOU, just PM me your address, and your name, and I will transfer all of my bills into your name.
Thanks for taking care of me.
You should have thought of that before you ran up all those bills. Like I did. You're one of those people who didn't exercise personal responsibility, and keep your finances manageable. Now you have to work, I don't. Thank you for the 20-dollar shirt that I bought yesterday at the Goodwill store for 75 cents. You're out 20 bucks, and I've got the shirt. Did you by any chance buy a Toyota in 1993? I've got that, too. Still runs great, but I have to recharge the AC.
If you were driving a '93 car and bought all your clothes at thrift shops, and you needed a hundred bucks to get you through the month, I'd paypal it to you (you wouldn't be the first). But, like everyone else, I have no sympathy for people who have not been exercising personal financial responsibility, and their plight of crushing indebtedness is nobody's fault but their own.
You should have thought of that before you ran up all those bills. Like I did. You're one of those people who didn't exercise pesonal responsibility, and keep your finances manageable. Now you have to work, I don't. Thank you for the 20-dollar shirt that I bought yesterday at the Goodwill store for 75 cents. You're out 20 bucks, and I've got the shirt. Did you by any chance buy a Toyota in 1993? I've got that, too.
I do not have any debt, other than my mortgage, and car payment. I live within my means, but if you are saying that not all people need to work, and my area of expertise is going though constrictions at the moment, then there is really no need to work, so how about you do what you want the government to do and well... Pay for my car payment, and my mortgage, I would be very happy to let you know where you can send the checks.
If you can't maintain your car payments and you mortgage, turn them back to the lender and show a little humility. Rent a modest apartment and buy a used car. Show a willingness to live an austere life, and I think you'll discover that it's not that hard to get by on just a little, and it wouldn't take that much in public benefits to keep a decent and dignified lifestyle. Spend some quality time with your kids. Take some nice long camping trips. Take some courses at the local college. After all, look how hard your parents and grandparents worked, in order for you to be able to take it a little bit easy and do things that fulfilled your dreams..
If you can't maintain your car payments and you mortgage, turn them back to the lender and show a little humility. Rent a modest apartment and buy a used car. Show a willingness to live an austere life, and I think you'll discover that it's not that hard to get by on just a little, and it wouldn't take that much in public benefits to keep a decent and dignified lifestyle. Spend some quality time with your kids. Take some nice long camping trips. Take some courses at the local college. After all, look how hard your parents and grandparents worked, in order for you to be able to take it a little bit easy and do things that fulfilled your dreams..
ahh, so you are saying that I should work hard, and earn the stuff I have? Ahh I get it now, so why did you say that not everyone has to work work, and we should support them?
I earn enough now to afford everything I have and then quite a bit more. I spend plenty of time with my Daughter and wife. But since you said that not everyone had to work, and we should support them. I felt that I would take you up on your offer, after all I am in Architectural Design earning a good living, but since we are in hard times, and people are cutting back on construction at the moment...
So, your socialist views of taking care of everyone works well until it is on your very door step, then you come with the approach of "not my money" I see how it is now.
I am now exempt from paying income tax, so it's not my money in any case. However, when I did work and pay income tax, I was still a strong supporter of government assistance programs aimed at giving people enough resources to live in dignity. It was on my doorstep then, and I gladly accepted it as my responsibility as a taxpayer. We all benefit from public schools, good roads, police and fire protection, public health, general nutrition, and minimization of poverty. Revenues dedicated to those goals make life better for all of us. I've already told you, Id send you $100 if you needed it to preserve the well-being and dignity of your family.
I am now exempt from paying income tax, so it's not my money in any case. However, when I did work and pay income tax, I was still a strong supporter of government assistance programs aimed at giving people enough resources to live in dignity. It was on my doorstep then, and I gladly accepted it as my responsibility as a taxpayer. We all benefit from public schools, good roads, police and fire protection, public health, general nutrition, and minimization of poverty. Revenues dedicated to those goals make life better for all of us. I've already told you, Id send you $100 if you needed it to preserve the well-being and dignity of your family.
I was trying to prove a point, and I think I have proven it. Those who promote the welfare state, are not willing to pay for it themselves when it comes time for them to pay, they deflect, attack and slide around the issue. Welfare is nothing but a crutch to make people feel comfortable in their poverty. Why work when the government is going to take care of their needs. And as you said earlier, not everyone needs to work. Well who decides who will work, and who will not work. I work very very hard to meet the needs of my family, and help the charities that I choose to send money to. It is not the governments job to take care of these by leveraging unfair taxes on success. As I have quoted earlier by Ben franklin, we must make people feel uncomfortable in their poverty so they will work to pull themselves out of it, not lavish them with high payments courtesy of the tax payers. Sure welfare does offer training for those who want to take it, but unfortunately the jobs that are around after the training is done, pay less than Welfare. Why would a chick leave the nest, if they knew they were going to have to sit on branches and find food for themselves?
A century ago, the work force needed to produce all that people needed was one adult in each family. It now requires two adults in each family to produce all that is needed plus all that is wanted. Supposedly, industrialization made it possible for all that it needed to be produced by even fewer people, such as our 'dozer driver.
This is very subjective to say that two require to support a family. Many people today have proven, including us, that much of what has been considered a necessity is pure luxury. If many of the luxuries many families want reduced, one adult would be required to work and give a decent life to the family.
Are you willing to grant that our benevolent and generous society, quite effortlessly now, can produce all that everyone needs, and just give it away, for it is such a small part of the overall GDP? And then, let those who want (rather than need) all the extras are free to work as hard as they like for them.
I have not problem with society to help those that are bonafide poor, the elder, the children, etc. As a society we would reflect our moral fiber as to how we treat those in true need. Even those that due to stupidity or whatever have less and are in dire situation I have not problem helping them. However, I do not believe in blanket programs that "Oh my God! there are some poor there! Let us start a program across the nation to and mandate on everybody what to do!".
Do you agree if the police start searching everybody in the city because there are some muggers causing problems to make sure to cover everybody?
The line I quoted above is not a self-evident truth, so you are going to have to back it up with something. You can't just call it a self evident truth, and then build a thesis on it.
Expand on this one. What self evident truth I talked about. I do not recall using that expression. Then I will back up whatever you are referring to.
It is closer to the truth, in my opinion, that a society is responsible to earn a living. Some lucky people live in a place where fruit falls from the trees and fish jump onto the shore, and the only shelter they need is shade from the warm sun, and the Christians haven't arrived yet to make them wear clothing. The only responsibility that falls on those people is to treat each other kindly and grant other their dignity, and make sure nobody hogs all the fruit.
You are talking in general terms here. Life is not fair though. People come in all colors and shapes and differing luck. My dauthers were not born with the same financial luck as Paris Hilton, live with it. They are responsible to find their way in life. I as a parent did whatever I could to shape them with skills and for them to use their gifts they inherited in life. I did not raise them to be looking around how lucky many around them are and they are not. That is simple envy. You are not lucky enough to be where the apple falls at your feet? Get up and find a tree where it does!!!!!! To some degree luck follows people that look for luck. Look for it. Do not whine how others have it and you do not.
Absent such good luck, the members of the society have the collective responsibility to do the work that is necessary to sustain the society, and try to make it a more comfortable one for all the members of the society. Some will work more productively than others, and generally, some kind of system of rewards is set up for those who contribute more. But that does not justify drawing a theoretical productivity line, and refusing the basic necessities to everyone who is on the wrong side of that line.
Our government is only responsible to set the conditions so everybody has a chance to find their way in life. Granted, those that for different reasons, as I stated above, we as a society may have some programs to help them get in line in the court and give it their try. Those that simply cannot make it, sure we can provide so type of assistance but not in a way that we promote laziness and take away from others results of their efforts.
If you penalize a million unproductive people because there are a few hundred goldbricks among them, you are just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. That denies a million people a share of the bounty, merely to punish a few hundred who may well deserve to be.
Penalize unproductive people!?
Our economic system is not perfect at all. I will not make that claim. However, compare that with a system you espouse as it was tried by former countries like the USSR and company, who faired better?
Compare numbers and results and tell me what system has given a better life to its people.
You do say how we should distribute the bounty, please give me one single point as to how we do that and then we can talk specifics. At this point we are talking in general terms. Heck, tell me a flaw in our system. We may find ways to improve it.
I was trying to prove a point, and I think I have proven it. Those who promote the welfare state, are not willing to pay for it themselves when it comes time for them to pay, they deflect, attack and slide around the issue. ?
Intentionally or otherwise, you are saying exactly the opposite of what I said, which was:
"when I did work and pay income tax, I was still a strong supporter of government assistance programs aimed at giving people enough resources to live in dignity"
Gee - I guess according to jtur88 - I don't live the "correct" lifestyle - not austere enough for his/her tastes.
I mean we have the 5000 sq ft home we custom built a few years ago. We have 4 vehicles in the garage all 2008/09 models. These don't include the motorcycles. We have a really nice boat too.
We have a summer home in another state which we started enjoying recently.
We do quite a bit of traveling - love seeing other parts of the world - other cultures - other peoples.
Our economic system is not perfect at all. I will not make that claim. However, compare that with a system you espouse as it was tried by former countries like the USSR and company, who faired better?
Compare numbers and results and tell me what system has given a better life to its people.
El Amigo
Put the USA in a position where we need to defend ourselves in an escalating arms race against an aggressor intent on destroying us, who starts out with ten or twenty times the wealth and resources that we have, and see how well our system does.
What country in the world has the highest percentage of people whose mother graduated from high school? USA? Nope. Russia. Would these "numbes and results" have anything to do with "a better life for its people"? Most of the top ten are former socialist countries.
Students whose mothers have secondary education > Age 13 (most recent) by country
Countries (A to Z)
Austria 57%
Belgium 37%
Canada 60%
Colombia 30%
Cyprus 22%
Czech Republic 53%
Denmark 43%
France 29%
Germany 24%
Greece 37%
Hong Kong 26%
Iceland 42%
Ireland 49%
Latvia 48%
Lithuania 49%
Netherlands 50%
New Zealand 51%
Norway 48%
Portugal 15%
Romania 39% Russia 78%
Slovakia 60%
Slovenia 60%
Spain 22%
Sweden 45%
Switzerland 49%
Thailand 9% United States 75%
Last edited by jtur88; 06-17-2009 at 10:37 AM..
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