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What agenda? The question was, and correct me if I'm wrong, is it a racist symbol? The answer to that is yes, and here is why it is considered a racist symbol. If you do not know that history then here it is. That would be recent history. I'll get back to that in a sec.
The question is not ban all weapons of mass destruction or ban crosses or ban the noose. Use the knot but don't hang it in a tree. If you read the articles, the NAACP said, no this guy was villified for no reason. That guy stated that he was not aware of the symbolism or the history and now he is.
Now, why did it get blown out of control? Why is that happening now? Largley due to the media. Conflict is news. Also, we saw or I saw, specifically, an increase of those who did not like Obama prior to his election because he was Black. I watched this on a specific forum. We have had race relationship problems for quite awhile. Simmering in some areas. But here is what I truly believe is the problem: lack of education. I think that is the biggest problem. This lack of awareness. This lack of recognizing triggers.
The thing about Jena is that it was done to get a specific reaction and there is no justification for the reaction that he got. Its a trigger, its a hot spot, be aware. Be aware of the history of symbols be aware of the names. I read history all the time, in doing so, I have learned that time is relatively short. So, Jena is not "my" version of recent history.
For example: A white female and a black male that I work with had a discussion. It seems that someone from his department climbed over something and should not have but it was necessary at the time. So, she says to him, "Which little monkey climbed over?"
He was shocked and had the most horrified look on his face. It took about 60 seconds for him to recover enough to leave the scene. So, what was the problem? She was not saying it in a racist manner. He was not looking for something to be racist. She truly was not aware of the negative impact of what she was saying. He knew exactly the negative connotation of that word. Therfore, my agenda is this: if you do not know what the history is........then here you go. Now, you know. Once you know then you cannot pretend that it doesn't exist.
Certainly, a 13 wrap hangmans knot can be displayed in a racist manner. Is it a solid symbol of racism? No. You story of your co -workers is ..interesting. Good grief....it seems like it's pretty hard to have a conversation of any kind , between people of different races, without having to walk on eggshells as to how you form your comments. Mention the word 'monkey' , regardless of context, in a conversation with a black person, and you run the risk of offending. A black person says 'cracker', ( and he/she may just be refering to the Saltines by the coffee mess) and a white person finds a reason to be offended. On and on it goes. Seems we can't even talk to each other any more. So many symbols and words have been hijacked that it has become impossible to communicate in plain old American. We almost need to have a formal version of our language, like the Japanese have, for interracial conversation any more. The hangmans noose has always represented the justice of the old west to me. I never saw it as a symbol of racism, but I suppose it has been and is used that way. By the same token, I suppose a bullwhip could be used thus as well, and a riding crop, a black horse sporting a Hope /Morgan saddle, a bale of cotton, chains, and the list goes on. Should we just outlaw use of all these items and words because they CAN be used in a derogatory manner? It just boggles the mind how lightly we have to tread with words and symbolism anymore.
/\ We're all aware of the atrocites of the Klan in America, but to take something as ambigous as a rope knot and hold it up as a symbol of hatred makes the cause of the modern day civil rights movement look somewhat silly and provocative.
I get very angry when ignorant whites cast Black Americans as excuse makers and whiners, but quite frankly, some of this recent stuff has left a sour taste in my mouth. People should be aware you can only cry wolf so many times before people tune out. And when he strikes (like say the pool incident in Pennsylvania), who will protect you?
Certainly, a 13 wrap hangmans knot can be displayed in a racist manner. Is it a solid symbol of racism? No. You story of your co -workers is ..interesting. Good grief....it seems like it's pretty hard to have a conversation of any kind , between people of different races, without having to walk on eggshells as to how you form your comments. Mention the word 'monkey' , regardless of context, in a conversation with a black person, and you run the risk of offending. A black person says 'cracker', ( and he/she may just be refering to the Saltines by the coffee mess) and a white person finds a reason to be offended. On and on it goes. Seems we can't even talk to each other any more. So many symbols and words have been hijacked that it has become impossible to communicate in plain old American. We almost need to have a formal version of our language, like the Japanese have, for interracial conversation any more. The hangmans noose has always represented the justice of the old west to me. I never saw it as a symbol of racism, but I suppose it has been and is used that way. By the same token, I suppose a bullwhip could be used thus as well, and a riding crop, a black horse sporting a Hope /Morgan saddle, a bale of cotton, chains, and the list goes on. Should we just outlaw use of all these items and words because they CAN be used in a derogatory manner? It just boggles the mind how lightly we have to tread with words and symbolism anymore.
The reason that we walk on eggshells is because we don't discuss it. We turn on the news and let someone else "interpret". We don't think, we react. We cannot progress unless you accept that your not on trial. You (general) can only be responsible for your actions.
When I read material on the old west it means the same thing to me. When I read material on specific cases where the end result was hanging: it is law and order of the day. As I said before, no one wants to "claim" the noose. It is not one history to the exclusion of another history. No one wants to hijack the noose. No one is using it as a justification.
So, we can either ban things left and right and change our language and continue to walk on eggshells but that seems like a whole lot of work and a lot more side-stepping which does not change anything. In fact, it creates animosity because people are being led into it. Reacting, not thinking.
Or you can look at the pictures and say.........yeah, I can see how that other history can get the same reaction. First, before you do that, try to drop the "I'm on trial for this history or representative of all white people." Or at least give it a shot. Then go look at the pictures. Then try walking in someone elses shoes for a split second. All that I am asking is, do you see the trigger?
That is a lot easier then walking on eggshells and banning. It didn't require much effort at all. You didn't have to sacrifice one symbol or history for another. The Boy Scouts live on, the whole nine yards. You were not even on trial. It is far easier to raise your level of awareness and recognize that there are going to be those numnuts who intentionally do and say outragous things to incite and enrage. You can't control them AND it is not your responsibility to answer for them. In the very same manner that on any given day a black woman or man is not representative of gangbangers and innercity violence or any other 99 things that can be concocted.
The interaction between my coworkers was what happened in a split second. This was not something premeditated. Nobody was walking around looking for a reason.
So is a noose that is used to hang one type of person categorically different than the noose used to hang another type of person? For example, was the noose used to hang a cattle rustler different from that used illegally to lynch a black person in the deep south? Is the noose used to hang a murderer different than the noose used to hang political dissidents in Stalinist Russia? Was the noose used to hang a revolutionary in New Spain different from the noose used to hang a heretic under the Inquisition?
If the answer is no, then how is this a racial issue again? A noose is a rope tied in a certain fashion. I've tied them before out of curiosity. The issue of race never crossed my mind.
Is a certain brand of cigarette paper a racists statement because some a**h*le who lynched a black person rolled his cigarettes with that brand of paper?
I abhor racism and am horrified that history holds those who lynched others because of the color of their skin. But using the logic I've read on this post (and some of the others), practically everything in our world could be considered a symbol of racism. A seagull picking through a McDonalds bag on the roadside could be considered racist. Where does this nonsense end?
So is a noose that is used to hang one type of person categorically different than the noose used to hang another type of person? For example, was the noose used to hang a cattle rustler different from that used illegally to lynch a black person in the deep south? Is the noose used to hang a murderer different than the noose used to hang political dissidents in Stalinist Russia? Was the noose used to hang a revolutionary in New Spain different from the noose used to hang a heretic under the Inquisition?
And by your logic, a noose used here, here and here cannot possibly have implications here and is therefore, not relevant. Now, you may not have intended it but it sounds like what you are doing is denial. This is where things start getting awry. And this would be the time that you might become overly defensive because that sure as hell was not what you intended.
Again, recognizing a history does not exclude another. We don't live in Stalinist Russia and we don't live in New Spain. Hanging a cattle rustler and hanging a black person and hanging a murderer or hanging someone for a supposed murder that technically just left town for a month or so.........that is our history.
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If the answer is no, then how is this a racial issue again? A noose is a rope tied in a certain fashion. I've tied them before out of curiosity. The issue of race never crossed my mind.
Why would it cross your mind? Are you on trial? Do you really think that the fact that you tied a rope in a certain fashion implies that your racist? Don't you think that is outlandish? Did you hang it on a tree outside of a black church? Did you hang it on a tree right next to a burning cross which happened to be next to chains and a whip?
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I abhor racism and am horrified that history holds those who lynched others because of the color of their skin. But using the logic I've read on this post (and some of the others), practically everything in our world could be considered a symbol of racism. A seagull picking through a McDonalds bag on the roadside could be considered racist. Where does this nonsense end?
The nonsense ends when people can say, you know, I can see why it is considered a trigger. I can see how the hell it is used to strike fear. I can see why it gets the reaction that it does.
We can go down this road the hard way or the easy way. You want to analyze a seagull? Be my guest ,but count me out because that is just over-complicating crap. Way, way too much work and effort that goes nowhere.
And by your logic, a noose used here, here and here cannot possibly have implications here and is therefore, not relevant. Now, you may not have intended it but it sounds like what you are doing is denial. This is where things start getting awry. And this would be the time that you might become overly defensive because that sure as hell was not what you intended.
Again, recognizing a history does not exclude another. We don't live in Stalinist Russia and we don't live in New Spain. Hanging a cattle rustler and hanging a black person and hanging a murderer or hanging someone for a supposed murder that technically just left town for a month or so.........that is our history.
Why would it cross your mind? Are you on trial? Do you really think that the fact that you tied a rope in a certain fashion implies that your racist? Don't you think that is outlandish? Did you hang it on a tree outside of a black church? Did you hang it on a tree right next to a burning cross which happened to be next to chains and a whip?
The nonsense ends when people can say, you know, I can see why it is considered a trigger. I can see how the hell it is used to strike fear. I can see why it gets the reaction that it does.
We can go down this road the hard way or the easy way. You want to analyze a seagull? Be my guest ,but count me out because that is just over-complicating crap. Way, way too much work and effort that goes nowhere.
It all has to do with context. In general, you can't just categorically say XXXXXXX is racist. For instance, a cross is not inherently racist, but if it's displayed or used in a certain fashion, you damn rights it's racist.
And yes, I'm fully aware that certain things like pointy-head white sheet suits are implicitly racist here in the US (although not the case elsewhere in the world). I just don't see how that can extend to nooses. It’s like calling a white bed sheet a racist statement. A bed sheet is NOT inherently racist!
Now... if the noose is hanging in a tree at a black church, sure it is. But, if it's hanging on a tree at an old-west historical display--no way. If it's hanging on a gallows at a prison, no way. If it's hanging in some backyard tree because some idiot kid thought it was cool, nope.
Although I am not immune to committing logical errors myself, I will forever disagree with a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter: 'I have only seen brown ducks, therefore all ducks are brown,' just doesn't work. 'Some nooses were used in a racist fashion, therefore all nooses are inherently racist.' It’s the same sort of argument. You can’t reasonably argue from a subset to a to a superset like that. Are you really calling that a sound logical conclusion?
Just to reaffirm: I'm not saying ANYTHING can't be used as a racists statement. All I'm saying is that not everything is always about race.
the noose itself is not racist. can it be used as a racist symbol? YES.
a noose hung on a black mans door sends a clear message. one of imtimidation.
there is a historical correlation between black folks and nooses.
but the noose on a white mans door might not elicit the same feelings because it does not carry the same historical significance.
and no matter how long its been since lynchings were prevalent, the fact remains that to this day the noose is used as a tool to strike fear and intimidation in black folk.
interesting enough, i think more mexicans might have been lynched in the US than anyother group...
Is a rope in the shape of a hangman's rope really racist..? IMO. No..! If there are other factors invovled, like name calling, hassament, etc and the noose is displayed ... then, yes I would call that racist. But to consider the noose alone without any hassament should not be considered racist.
Hanging has been carried out on many criminals for many years all over the world, no matter the skin color. Why is it in recent years that this has become a symbol of racism..? Wasn't the Confederate flag enough..?
The recent case in Houston was misunderstood, but an apoligize was made. Cooler heads pervailed after looking into the facts. But as soon as a noose was discovered, everyone jumps to a conclusion that it's racist.
People forget that we are the United States and within these states numerous local sub-cultures. This means that a given symbol in one place means nothing or something altogether different in another.
I do not see the noose as offensive. But were I part of the black diaspora from the South, maybe I would have a different take. And maybe were I White from the South, I would have a different take on the noose and the reaction to it.
It all has to do with context. In general, you can't just categorically say XXXXXXX is racist. For instance, a cross is not inherently racist, but if it's displayed or used in a certain fashion, you damn rights it's racist.
And yes, I'm fully aware that certain things like pointy-head white sheet suits are implicitly racist here in the US (although not the case elsewhere in the world). I just don't see how that can extend to nooses. It’s like calling a white bed sheet a racist statement. A bed sheet is NOT inherently racist!
Now... if the noose is hanging in a tree at a black church, sure it is. But, if it's hanging on a tree at an old-west historical display--no way. If it's hanging on a gallows at a prison, no way. If it's hanging in some backyard tree because some idiot kid thought it was cool, nope.
Although I am not immune to committing logical errors myself, I will forever disagree with a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter: 'I have only seen brown ducks, therefore all ducks are brown,' just doesn't work. 'Some nooses were used in a racist fashion, therefore all nooses are inherently racist.' It’s the same sort of argument. You can’t reasonably argue from a subset to a to a superset like that. Are you really calling that a sound logical conclusion?
Just to reaffirm: I'm not saying ANYTHING can't be used as a racists statement. All I'm saying is that not everything is always about race.
And someday, you can explain how your logic is not argumentum ad antiquitatem.
Again, this is a racist symbol in a history. I have already explained why.
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