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Disclaimer: My intent is not to crucify anyone's poitical viewpoint. I'm just curious.
'Liberalism’ and ‘conservatism’ are both vague, multidefined terms. I wonder how many of you who claim to be ‘liberal’ are claiming it in the true, classic sense of the word. How many of you know what that definition is? Also, how many of you who claim to be ‘conservative’ are really liberals in the classic sense of the word?
Does that sound like a liberal nowadays? By that definition, I’m nearly a liberal. But I’m certainly not a liberal in the here-and-now sense of the word. Being a liberal can mean polar opposites depending on which definition you use! We need a new term. Modern ‘liberalism’ is really more of a Statism philosophy. The same applies to conservatism. It's too vague. It doesn't simply mean traditional. Look up conservatism and neoconservatism. Neoconservatism actually scares me. I don't think most who claim to be a conservative realize what that can mean. We need some better terminology.
Again, my aim is not to bash any political philosophy. I’m just curious. How about if everyone states which way you lean (liberal or conservative or neither) and provides a brief list of what that means to you.
I’ll start:
Philosophy:
Neither liberal (new definition) nor conservative. Perhaps close to classic liberalism, but here are some other philosophies that have elements of my way of thinking: minarchism, anarcho-capitalism, mutualism, libertarianism, and libertarian-socialism.
Basic beliefs:
* minimal ‘night watchman state’ (government's responsibilities are limited to protecting individuals from coercion, fraud and theft, to requiring reparation to victims, and to defending the country from foreign aggression)
* Absolute personal freedom limited only in that you mustn’t hamper other’s rights to the same. Other than that, do your thing.
* A cooperative society rather than a competitive one. Compassion based on volunteerism and charity, rather than obligation. If you wish to exist in a ‘socialist’ model, you are free to do so in the form of an organized cooperative. Yet, you are under no obligation to do so and the government has no roll in the matter.
* Negative freedom, as opposed to positive freedom. (look it up before assuming, if you don’t know)
* Interest bearing business and/or economics forbidden.
I know it’s rather pie-in-the-sky, but we can dream, right? What are your basic political beliefs?
The populace in general has turned to a different language to reflect the canned political and theological diet they have been on for the last two decades. It wasn't that long ago that proles were excluded from the discourse common to the upper educated class, no one would have thought the prole to be capable of reading the vast amount of scholarly writings that rich men had been exposed to in their university studies. Today we have condensed the body of knowledge necessary for holding up ones end of the conversation. Instant news has replaced study, phrases are adapted as the foundation on which the prole can build out his maze of weak understanding of the issues. When we reached this point in the cultural makeover, the media lords gave the masses the script, two opposing sides, conservative and liberal. It mattered not that the issues were complex, they were encouraged to simplify, change the language and you will have successfully changed the terms of the debate. What really matters now is how we will continue on with these less than knowledgable folks out there voting, serving on jury duty, working in the schools, and getting their information from radio talk show propaganda. Very few people can define their political parties platform plank by plank, they are shown the candidates oratory skills and asked to choose between the best sales pitch, similar difficulties arise when these folks are asked about their religion. All in all, I guess we can't expect the language to remain fixed in a world consumed by change, lables are easy to remember, and catch phrases are the order of the day, everybody is "educated" today in this fashion, it passes for real knowledge and the humbling that real knowledge brings is missed out on. Their are few things as dangerous as an undereducated, overconfident, arrogant, fool that has no need for the truth.
Trying to make sense out of all the liberal vs conservative nonsense in American politics is pointless. Its all about which "team" your on, there seems to be no clear notion behind these terms.
As a result its nearly impossible to speak to an average Joe about politics. They will try to pigeonhole you as a liberal or conservative despite the terms being vacuous. If you disagree with someone that thinks they are conservative on even a single issue, you are "liberal". If you disagree with a liberal on a single issue you are "conservative". Its rather amusing in a way.
I agree, it's like sports now with the immaturity of it. To a great extent, Americans seem to believe in "Freedom for me but not for thee". Between who wants to stop gay marriage, who's looking for a handout, who's hating on illegals, who wants us to give up our guns. Lots of BS out there.....
I believe in five words - Individual Rights And Personal Responsiblity. You can't have one without the other. You can't demand rights and not take the responsibility for your choices - or expect someone else to 'save' you. You can't demand rights for yourself to the exclusion of someone else's identical rights.
Neither liberals nor conservatives believe in this. Each is looking for someone else to save them from their bad choices, while they alone profit from their good ones - and each wants to control the other. I don't CARE what other people do - as long as they keep it to themselves and it doesn't cost me money, time, or my own rights. Sadly, most people want to either control and lead others, or sit back and let those same others take care of their wants and needs. 99% of all people are sheeple - slavering after first this, than that, individual or group, looking for a saviour, afraid to stand on their own and take the fall for their bad choices as well as to let themselves and others profit for their own good ones. Everyone wants a piece of someone else's pie, and expects them to be grateful to hand it over. No one educates themselves, they simply follow whatever leader promises them that they are better than everyone else. No one uses pure reason to make decisions; they are all coloured with emotional angst, self-aggrandizement, and fulfillment of their desires, never thinking or caring about the cost to themselves or others.
Shrug. The endless arguments over Obama and Bush and Kerry and Cheney and everyone else are mere mindless, vapid, emotional distractions to the truth - most folks don't WANT freedom, don't WANT choices, don't like reason and the terrifying insecurity of depending on themselves. I.e.; most folks bore me to death.
Trying to make sense out of all the liberal vs conservative nonsense in American politics is pointless. Its all about which "team" your on, there seems to be no clear notion behind these terms.
As a result its nearly impossible to speak to an average Joe about politics. They will try to pigeonhole you as a liberal or conservative despite the terms being vacuous. If you disagree with someone that thinks they are conservative on even a single issue, you are "liberal". If you disagree with a liberal on a single issue you are "conservative". Its rather amusing in a way.
Yes, I agree. I find this mentality very frustrating and dangerous. We're going to have another Civil War if we don't start taking the time to really think about what we really believe and really listen to others.
i lean independently too as far as politics are concerned. it infuriates me to no end to see the fanatically religious followers of political parties. they are all corrupt and self-serving. none of them have our interests at heart, and none of them would stay in power if they did.
every time we prepare for another election, i stew through a moral debate about which of the evils is the lesser, and which of the lesser evils is going to be able to keep us floating for a little longer.
conservatism and liberalism have ceased (as warned by some of the founding fathers) to function, and are now just clubs for rich people competing in social experimentation and popularity competitions.
i am an optimist in almost every aspect of my life, but when it comes to politics, i am very cynical. it comes down to power and greed almost always.
i'd like to see a return to a limited federal government–you know, an actual republic–instead of the patriot-act-ban-everything-under-the-sun-liability-insurance system that we have now. i'd like to see a partyless system that limits the time that a public *servant* can remain in any capacity.
as far as positive and negative liberties are concerned, i think that a true republic can embody the best of both. as replogle states, once positive liberty crosses the line of consent, it ceases to be liberty in any sense, and becomes poorly disguised paternalism.
in my ideal world, the two liberties work together in the social contract. replogle's cited example on the wiki page states that p. liberty is kept when your buddy takes your car keys when you are drunk, only if you have consented before hand and made the decision that you are not going to drive drunk.
the opposite, when your friend takes your keys regardless of your desires, is paternalism. the only part that i disagree with is the example. paternalism is required, in my mind, in a few instances. the only instances that i can agree with though are cases where you stop someone from hurting others. taking someone's keys so that they cannot drunkenly plow into a minvan full of children at highway speeds is ok in my book.
as far as social economics go, i'm not studied enough to have an opinion of the best system. but i know enough to understand that it is not the form of capitalism that we run on currently, and it isn't the form of socialism that some people want to turn us into.
Honestly, I think that many people's political views are even too complex to be defined as "liberal" or "conservative" in much the same way that people themselves are too complex for one-dimensional labels. The OP does make a good point about how the political system has warped original definitions and labels but even those terms are almost obsolete and have been replaced by Democrat and Republican--even though many people really don't fall neatly into either of those categories either--to propogate the two-party system.
Almost all the people in this country who call themselves Conservatives, are the ones who are most stridently calling for action to destroy conservative policies and bring a Liberal government to power in Iran.
There is usually only two parties, not Democrat or Republican per say...more like "Us" and "Them". Whatever moniker describes what many in a persons peer group subscribe to. There is no real defining issues anymore, save the popularity of the political stance.
I think it's hilarious because I really don't subscribe to either as a over riding philosophy, I just vote what I think on each issue and the representative I most agree with. People try and fit me into a hole of one or the other so they can argue against me, it's easy to make assumptions on people's beliefs if one thinks the opposition is for everything they are not. Instead of the more complex reality where you may agree and disagree on different points.
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