Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I didn't say that. I said people should know how to do something from scratch.
Sorry if this is crude, but... the only things we truly make from scratch are the bodily secretions and babies To produce anything else you will need to have the raw materials that if you think about it aren't really that 'raw' and readily available in nature. A hunter gatherer lifestyle is probably as raw as it gets and as close to obtaining something from 'scratch' given that you have weapons to hunt and skin animals. For everything else, you rely on materials prepared or provided by others, you rely on tools created and manufactured by others. let's say you want to grow your own food, you still need seeds, tools, fertilizer, insecticide and maybe some materials for a green house or to protect your crops from extreme weather elements.
There are tons of people on these threads that are patting themselves on the back how they have the 'basic survival skills', and how they tend to their little backyard gardens hoping to make it through the 'hard times', and how they do all the plumbing and electrical work in their houses. They tend to ignore the fact that they don't truly depend on these skills knowing that if something happens to their crop there is a supermarket around the corner and if they screw up their plumbing or electrical work, there are professionals for hire to fix. Sure, if it makes you feel superior, go ahead and declare how you live off of the fruits of your labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
Most people, maybe 90%, maybe 99%, have spent their whole lives putting pegs in whatever hole that their supervisors train them put it in. When it is no longer required to have pegs in those holes, the worker is unemployed and still possesses no skill.
Although in principle your statement is correct especially when applied to certain industries (I'll elaborate later), you do exaggerate here. 90-99% of people just "putting pegs into holes"? come on. Who is designing and manufacturing all these pegs and holes? Who is then feeding all these workers, who is making clothes for them and who is building houses, automobiles, curing them of diseases, protecting them from crime and fire, teaching them and their kids, etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
When your industry consists of Homer Simpsons waiting for a red warning light to go on, what do we collectively know how to do? We have a few thinkers at the top, but our work force is chickens pecking buttons for seeds.
Our workforce is much more complex than that, although what you are referring is applicable especially to certain industries such as manufacturing and IT. (ironically both the most outsourced industries).
We have parsed what can be thought of as one unit of work into several pieces and handed them over to several workers. Kinda like a system, the outcome of which is a meaningful result, so the system can be thought of as being 'knowledgeable' of performing this very meaningful task while each piece of that system isn't really 'knowledgeable' of the entire task and only acquires meaning in conjunction with the other 'kegs' in the machine. In manufacturing, this is a part of being efficient in producing large amounts of rather complicated items that usually take significant effort of one individual or are impossible for one individual to create. You won't be able to get a way from this paradigm and I see nothing wrong with it. Since ancient times there existed 'things' that required coordinated effort of many people with diversified skills to yield the result.
As far as thinkers are concerned. Let's say you are a thinker and you invent widget1 which improves lives and is in high demand. You have two choices: 1) manufacture widget1 yourself in large quantities occupying 99% of your time 2) teach a group of people how to make widget1 and have them do it while you concentrate your energy on inventing widget2 which will benefit people even more. What is a better thing to do? Thinkers will be better off 'thinking' and leaving 'making' to someone else. Besides, it requires more of those who 'make' anyway to produce the large enough number of widgets.
Remember also, we live in a capitalist society where it pays to have someone else do work for you instead of working yourself. This was passed to us from ancient times where it paid to be a landlord vs. a farmer, where it paid to be an overseer vs. a slave and a general vs. a foot soldier. Can we complain about it? that's what the revolutions were for, what did they accomplish? In the long end not much more than shifting of power. So, disrespect for 'real workers' and glorification of 'managers' 'bosses' and those in power who don't do real work.. Hmm, could this just be a human nature, or the fact that we didn't yet 'evolve' beyond this nature?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
How did we digress to this? The poster who said that an American can fend for himself if there is massive unemployment. Well, they can't, because people don't even know how to use a stick to knock an apple off a tree.
Again, you tend to exaggerate here. First, you underestimate what people are capable and willing to do under extreme circumstances. Secondly, survival under failing economy is quite different than surviving 10.5 or whatever other SyFy channel apocalypse scenario keeps you up at night. You obviously are a very intelligent individual judging from your posts, well, there are many out there just like you or even more intelligent, so you should trust that they won't just lie down and die. There are also many of those who aren't as bright, but I am sure they will still be able to figure out how to knock an apple off a tree and if they don't figure that out, they most likely will just resort to using that stick against you to take away your apples.
KT13, your arguments are well presented, and I thank you for taking the trouble to express them cogently. It is hard to rebut them.
I think, though, that you overestimate the capability of an isolated human being and his family to be able to survive without periodic trips to Walmart. And even then, survive would likely be defined as "not die immediately". The life expectancy of a person or a tiny group of people without access to the industrial civilization grid would be very low. You mentioned, for example, plumbing skills. They would be pretty useless after somebody's shock and awe had just melted down the public water supply system of the whole country.
An eleventh century farmer's family in a Norwegian valley would, and did, survive quite well without any interconnectedness with neighbors. A 21-st century American probably would not, even though a few might. We have gone backwards, in that respect.
KT13, your arguments are well presented, and I thank you for taking the trouble to express them cogently. It is hard to rebut them.
I think, though, that you overestimate the capability of an isolated human being and his family to be able to survive without periodic trips to Walmart. And even then, survive would likely be defined as "not die immediately". The life expectancy of a person or a tiny group of people without access to the industrial civilization grid would be very low. You mentioned, for example, plumbing skills. They would be pretty useless after somebody's shock and awe had just melted down the public water supply system of the whole country.
An eleventh century farmer's family in a Norwegian valley would, and did, survive quite well without any interconnectedness with neighbors. A 21-st century American probably would not, even though a few might. We have gone backwards, in that respect.
You get your water upstream of where you dispose of your waste.
Not to thread-jack but rather to get back on course, it's worth considering that about half the population have IQ's of 100 or less. These people don't frequent internet forums. As late as the 1950's and even the 1970's, people who were not all that bright but were willing to work hard could usually find a decent job, some in the automotive industry actually did pretty well. They also got good benefits, like health care, for themselves and their families. I had several uncles who went this route, ironically they were very intellegent guys, but they ended up working more with their hands than with their heads. Then they went home and did all sorts of puzzles, played Scrabble, they worked hard in jobs with essentially no creative content, but played like eggheads. But I digress.
But these jobs seem to be less common now. Today's autoworker does not tighten lug nuts with an air wrench, he programs a computer that tightens the lug nuts. This takes more brain and less brawn.
Consider Fred Reed's points in #368, "Socialized Medicine".
KT13, your arguments are well presented, and I thank you for taking the trouble to express them cogently. It is hard to rebut them.
I think, though, that you overestimate the capability of an isolated human being and his family to be able to survive without periodic trips to Walmart. And even then, survive would likely be defined as "not die immediately". The life expectancy of a person or a tiny group of people without access to the industrial civilization grid would be very low. You mentioned, for example, plumbing skills. They would be pretty useless after somebody's shock and awe had just melted down the public water supply system of the whole country.
An eleventh century farmer's family in a Norwegian valley would, and did, survive quite well without any interconnectedness with neighbors. A 21-st century American probably would not, even though a few might. We have gone backwards, in that respect.
Well, you are right that all these backyard farmers definitely won't survive without the periodic trips to Walmart And that we won't last long if all our infrastructure were to be destroyed, partly it's because we probably would kill each other for food and shelter before hunger even gets to us. I am sure the Hollywood writers have incorporated this into their latest 'end of the world' flicks.
As far as 11th century farmer... Not so sure that the family would really survive without ANY interconnections to neighbors. Did this farmer have more skills than a modern man to survive in isolation? Absolutely. But surely, they did some bartering to exchange the crops or wool or other fruits of their labor for the tools which required a little more specialized skill and equipment that the farmer may not possess. The farmer also invited the midwife when it was time for his wife to give birth and paid a few coins or baskets of goods to the healer when any of his family members got sick. And most likely paid rent to the landlord (oh, some things just never change). I am still having a hard time getting convinced that a family can survive in complete isolation without first acquiring a reserve of certain items that are fruit of someone else's labor.
But enough derailing this thread. After all, this is about our current unemployment problems in the face of the economic slump not about the end of the world as we know it.
yes we need to reassess how we as a society survive and support ourselves and our families. It has turned into that thing where people always work for someone else, depending solely on that paycheck from some company.
Which is NOT reliable, we can see that. And the borrowing of money to own a home, is a big part of the worry, when you lose it due to lack of a paying job.
What i see is something i already knew. That Americans left the land, and went to the city looking for "work". They sold the family farms. Dumb mistake of previous generations. Or others who came later, had no land to begin with. But that is where the security lies.
We need to change our emphasis back to more self sustaining ways. Own land and farm it. Learn the things the appalachians and others have used for centuries to stay sustained on their little mountain properties. (I learned how to sew clothes without any machine, for instance- very inexpensive, but good clothes- just to be able to do it by hand).
Like any kind of financial picture, the word is "diversify". Have several things you rely on for resources, not just one. In case one is weak, the other resources will shore you up.
But even with self sustaining farms, it does take a whole community of people trading and helping each other out. Yes there usually is some need for money and barter. But much LESS money. That's the problem. People nowadays often don't know how to make their own stuff, rely on each other, and use far less money, any more.
And look at recent immigrants- how they stick together in their extended families. THIS is how America once was. That is why some old farm areas have 2 or 3 houses built close together, as the next generation would build right next to their parents house on land already owned by the family. Or, build huge wings onto older houses for extended family expansion. REDUCING the cost of owning a new home. You see? families should stop moving away from each other, stick together on a piece of land (even a small one), and help each other out, whenever they can.
This type of thing can be accomplished in any cohesive group also, like a group of church members or a whole congregation, that becomes more integrated and decides to build some housing at cost, for members only, on a plot of land.
People need to co-op with each other in their families and other close knit groups. If you don't have a group, join one or 2. Humans rarely survive well outside of a supportive group.
I think what the OP hinted at, and others, is that our society and economy for the isolated working man, has evolved into something not sustainable and we are seeing the results. time to analyze and alter our lifestyles.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
To produce anything else you will need to have the raw materials that if you think about it aren't really that 'raw' and readily available in nature. A hunter gatherer lifestyle is probably as raw as it gets and as close to obtaining something from 'scratch' given that you have weapons to hunt and skin animals. For everything else, you rely on materials prepared or provided by others, you rely on tools created and manufactured by others. let's say you want to grow your own food, you still need seeds, tools, fertilizer, insecticide and maybe some materials for a green house or to protect your crops from extreme weather elements. 
And that we won't last long if all our infrastructure were to be destroyed, partly it's because we probably would kill each other for food and shelter before hunger even gets to us. I am sure the Hollywood writers have incorporated this into their latest 'end of the world' flicks. 
