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During the last presidential election I read an Interesting article on the internet.
It concerned a pastor from Rio Rancho NM, a Mr Robert Hall.
It seems that he was endorsing Republican candidates from his pulpit, he was'nt alone, in 31 churches across the United States pastors were doing exactly the same thing.
As far as I know non of these churches have had their tax-exempt status revoked.
Then there are church leaders like Fred Phelps & Steve Anderson of The Faithful Word Baptist church who live to spread hatred & bigotry amongst their congregation. They benefit from tax- exempt status, why have the US goverment not take any action against these people & their churches.
During the last presidential election I read an Interesting article on the internet.
It concerned a pastor from Rio Rancho NM, a Mr Robert Hall.
It seems that he was endorsing Republican candidates from his pulpit, he was'nt alone, in 31 churches across the United States pastors were doing exactly the same thing.
As far as I know non of these churches have had their tax-exempt status revoked.
Then there are church leaders like Fred Phelps & Steve Anderson of The Faithful Word Baptist church who live to spread hatred & bigotry amongst their congregation. They benefit from tax- exempt status, why have the US goverment not take any action against these people & their churches.
Churchs have been rallying places for political discussions and movements for years. The civil rights community used their churchs for this purpose as well. I don't see this as a bad thing.
As far as I know, the main reason that churchs are tax exempt is because of their charitable dealings. A church is supposed to be non profit, they are supposed to give all extra money back to their community, and other charitable organizations. I know this isn't always the case, but in the majority I believe it is so.
I'm a flat tax fan myself though, so I feel that there should be no property tax, just the one flat tax.
Seems o me that most folks who start up threads like this just have a personal ax to grind with people of faith, for whatever reason, and, they ALWAYS bring up 'the separation of church and state'. First, that little term needs to be clarified. The Framers put that little clause in our Constitution to keep what happened in Europe and England from happening here. The Vatican calling the shots, and holding the reins of power, semi covertly, from the pulpit, altar, whatever. These days, many people are taking the intent of the separation to a far flung extreme, actually going as far as to say that atheism is the true intent. Not hardly. Our founders were merely taking a lesson from things like the Inquisition, and oh so many other power grabs by the church. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not kids can pray in school, or have a Bible study group as an extracurricular club. The lengths that anti religion groups have gone to in many things is as much a perversion of the intent of the first amendment as outright banning of a faith in favor of another. Face it folks, by not allowing kids ,who wish to, to bring their faith to school with them, in a private way, we are supporting atheism as, basically, a state sponsored belief. Sam with taking God out of the pledge, prayer before things like sessions of congress etc. Many people wish to see ALL reference to faith struck away. This is a dangerous idea, just as dangerous as allowing a large central church to dominate our government from behind a curtain. FREEDOM of religion means just that. We are free to worship , or not, as we see fit. There are just as many wacko atheists out there who wish to make power bids as there are 'churches'. I'm not a religious person, at all, but the promotion of a complete lack of faith , in all aspects of our governance, in our schools etc, smacks of a rank hypocracy, by uninformed and self righteous groups who want to read far more into the first amendment than is actually there. LMAO, and they call the religious groups self righteous.
I want to commend you on this post ; the points you make are very valid and reality for our society today. There exists a huge amount of biggotry when you think ONLY a secular humanist approach is given in schools , despite that fact that Creationism and the ideals of The Christian Faith are interwoven in our Judicial System and basic Human Rights.
You aksed for it...here is my story...I grew up as a Catholic, I was raised to fear and never question God or his will. We went to church around the holidays only. This went on till I was about 19 when I met a girl who was mormon, two years after meeting her we got married. I fallowed and studied the bible for the first time in my life for two years. That didnt last because my wife and I where just two different people. I never bought into her beliefs either. After about a year of no church or religious activity, my brother started asking me if I wanted to go to church with him at a church called life center, it is a four square gospal Christian church...my favorite of all churches. I did that for about 3 years and took a bible study class the whole time. At this same time I was taking a logic class and a few philosophy classes. Religion became a big thing to me, I studied it imensly and tried to fallow its every word. But the more I studdied it, the more I began to realize the falseness in it. Yes, some of its teachings are whole hearted and worth fallowing, but these are basic human priciples. To say that they are God inspiried is false. These basic human morals where established long before religion or the bible.
This bring us to current times, Where I believe that a person can live a just, good, and fulfilling life without religion. All one has to do is bring happiness to others, and bring happiness to one self. There is nothing more needed to be done. there is no claim or credit given needed to a god, we all act on out own, thus the credit for anything we do is ours and not some false deity.
Dont get me wrong, I would say half of the religious community are good people, the rest have it all wrong.
This county was not founded on religion of any kind, it was founded on freedome to choose for ones self. It was founded on the principle that a person could believe what they want without religious persicution, this means the church could not persicute them/us, and that the government could not persicute those that believed in a hirer power.
I am still waiting for any evidance that god truley exists. The only proof you could give me would be meeting the big cheese himself. maybe a talking burning bush, but most drugs can account for all of the "sighting" of god that are in the bible. A bad drug trip could have induced many godly/heavenly sightings.
God(s) are simply a way to bring comfort to those who fear the unknown. There is nothing wrong with believing in a God, or the bible, as long as it is kept to yourself. Now, there are two reasons the bible and your beliefs should be kept to yourself.
1. Not everyone believes in the bible or your god.
2. Religion is something that people wrap around their lifestyle and not the other way around. So everyone believes something differant, everyones take on the bible and god are differant.
These two reasons alone should be enough to keep people from "sharing" their beliefs. If you really think it is your duty to convert everyone...here is what you should do...
Give everyone that you feel you need to save a bible(most churches give these away) ask them to read it and if they have any questions to ask you about them. After that your part is done, it is now all up to that person, dont ask them about it again, dont tell them that their way of living is wrong or false, just let them ponder the choice they have.
I personally dont think it matters if you believe or not, if you do and your right, good for you and I hope your ready for hell. If you dont believe, and you live a good life...welcome to heaven you did everything right. If you do or dont believe and you do wrong, satan will welcome you with open arms and have the presidential suite waiting for you, because you did exactly what you wanted him to do.
I grew out of fairy tales long ago, There is one that I am thinking about and that is the god Ninkasi, the goddess of brewing and beer. It is supposably one of the earliest referances to a god.
That is another thing that gets me, why is it that the Christian god is real but the greek gods and goddesses are not? dont the greek gods predate the Christian ones? DOnt they all have just as much proof?
Every religion thinks they are right, they cant all be right...so which one is right? are any of them right?
I do thank you for sharing your story. The great majority of people who abandon Christianity are due to a bad experience and/or not getting thier heart-felt questions answered . Youve presented ALOT in this response , and far more than what i can address in this particular venue, but, id be willing to carry this chat further on PM or email if you wish...because you didnt get beyond the religiousity stage into a deep and meaningful personal relationship with God thru Christ . While im not discounting what you say as reality to yourself, there are some misconceptions you have from being drowned in a religion of legalism . I can assure you what you experienced growing up was NOT the real Christian Faith -- it was the same legalism that Christ himself condemned the Pharisees about when they established thier own manmade rules, regulations, and demands to keep one pinned to their system of legalism.
That said, God is still the same and has not moved ; he still hopes you recognize your ultimate reason for living is in him and invites you to seek him without the legalistic bondage. Did you know that Christ himself denounced religion because of the harm it has ? If you want to examine what a real walk with God entails, im available to discuss that with you apart from this Thread , or you choose to sit down with a Pastor of a large Church who would be willing to listen to you then explain what it was that was severely missing in your childhood/young adult life. Is this something you can see doing since there simply is no greater issue facing Man , than the Creator and how one is reconciled to him for eternity -- it never was based on ones good works outweighing the bad ; it was always based on what Christ DID , not what we can DO to earn our way.
There is a big difference between Religious political persuasion, and Atheist political persuausion.
That difference is, that most Atheists don't want to tell you what to do. Atheists are fighting for you to do whatever the hell you want. They don't want creationism taught in school because it is trying to indoctrinate all of the other children with a religious ideal. Creationism isn't based on good scientific study, its based on a religious idea. Same thing with laws being passed based on religious moralitiy. There is a difference between human morality, and religious morality.
This is the difference that I see. Now I don't support telling a child they can't bring a bible to school, and I haven't heard of that. I don't support banning children from praying on their own at school, and I can't say as I've heard of that either. Those two cases would be going to far in the other direction.
What I support, and what the founding fathers support, is passing laws based on the public good only. For instance, whats wrong with homosexual marriage? Other countries have it, and they haven't fallen into the ocean. Are you afraid it may harm your since of morality? If so, deal with yourself, instead of telling everyone else what to do.
I say this so often to religious folks who try and tell me what I'm doing with my life is wrong, "Maybe you should worry a little less about me, and a little more about yourself." You see, I don't worry about you at all, if you go our and kill yourself tomorrow, its none of my business. It matters to me on a human scale, but physically, it doesn't harm me one way or the other. I worry about what goes on in my world, and try not to tell anyone else what to do. However, I stand up when others start forcing their religious ideals down my throat.
'That difference is, that most Atheists don't want to tell you what to do. Atheists are fighting for you to do whatever the hell you want. They don't want creationism taught in school because it is trying to indoctrinate all of the other children with a religious ideal.'
REPLY: True. They want their religion of secular humanism pushed and will rely on people believing desperate theories as scientific fact such as Slimey Pond Scum to 206 bone/ 600 muscle Human Being with a brain that thinks in abstract. ANything to deny the most obvious of all things : A personal Creator who loves us.
' Creationism isn't based on good scientific study, its based on a religious idea.'
REPLY: False and a biased view ; Creationism is the one that modern science is heavily leaning toward ... at least for the scientists who have a completely unbiased Mind regarding natural causes and intelligent causes ; the worlds foremost scientists and cosmologists find THEISM best describes reality. , but the biased Heart doesnt want to know that.
' Same thing with laws being passed based on religious moralitiy. There is a difference between human morality, and religious morality. '
REPLY: False. No difference at all. According to our Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, it is absolute moral laws coming from the Divine Creator which are infused in the fiber of every human being so we can have an objective basis for living correctly and civily from obedience to them. But alas, many people find that 'too restrictive and old fashion' .
'This is the difference that I see. Now I don't support telling a child they can't bring a bible to school, and I haven't heard of that. I don't support banning children from praying on their own at school, and I can't say as I've heard of that either. Those two cases would be going to far in the other direction.
'
REPLY: Absurd isnt it, when you consider our Judicial System is still based on principles set down from the Judeo-Christian ethic including the basis of objective Moral Laws from which the system operates.
'What I support, and what the founding fathers support, is passing laws based on the public good only. For instance, whats wrong with homosexual marriage? Other countries have it, and they haven't fallen into the ocean. Are you afraid it may harm your since of morality? If so, deal with yourself, instead of telling everyone else what to do.
'
REPLY: If youre going to go with the Founding Fathers, you should know they desired Biblical core morals and values for this country...not only for their time, but for ALL time. They knew that would be best and they never considered that America would dream up moral relativism that IS the catalyst for its moral degradation today.
'I say this so often to religious folks who try and tell me what I'm doing with my life is wrong, "Maybe you should worry a little less about me, and a little more about yourself." You see, I don't worry about you at all, if you go our and kill yourself tomorrow, its none of my business. It matters to me on a human scale, but physically, it doesn't harm me one way or the other. I worry about what goes on in my world, and try not to tell anyone else what to do. However, I stand up when others start forcing their religious ideals down my throat.
REPLY: You can be moral without God in your life, but you cant justify being that way if you hold to YOU determining the moral foundation . Further apart from God in ones life, its easy to see the real outcome when one feels no ultimate moral accountability beyond oneself.
'You see, I don't worry about you at all, if you go our and kill yourself tomorrow, its none of my business. It matters to me on a human scale, but physically, it doesn't harm me one way or the other. I worry about what goes on in my world, and try not to tell anyone else what to do. However, I stand up when others start forcing their religious ideals down my throat.'
REPLY: Well, how about just plain ol' common sense morals and ethics that your Parents thought were highly important for their children to adopt and keep ? Guess where these came from ? They came from THE BIBLE , even if ones Parents were non religious...because morals, good values, and ethics are intrinsic to human beings to which Parents are called to reinforce for the betterment of their offspring which makes for a good society. Can you imagine our Parents telling their children :" Just do as you like cause its YOU that determine if anything is right from wrong" ?! This is what many Parents teach today, but not our Parents because they knew moral, values, and ethics were time honored unchanging and vital.
There is a big difference between Religious political persuasion, and Atheist political persuausion.
That difference is, that most Atheists don't want to tell you what to do. Atheists are fighting for you to do whatever the hell you want. They don't want creationism taught in school because it is trying to indoctrinate all of the other children with a religious ideal. Creationism isn't based on good scientific study, its based on a religious idea. Same thing with laws being passed based on religious moralitiy. There is a difference between human morality, and religious morality.
This is the difference that I see. Now I don't support telling a child they can't bring a bible to school, and I haven't heard of that. I don't support banning children from praying on their own at school, and I can't say as I've heard of that either. Those two cases would be going to far in the other direction.
What I support, and what the founding fathers support, is passing laws based on the public good only. For instance, whats wrong with homosexual marriage? Other countries have it, and they haven't fallen into the ocean. Are you afraid it may harm your since of morality? If so, deal with yourself, instead of telling everyone else what to do.
I say this so often to religious folks who try and tell me what I'm doing with my life is wrong, "Maybe you should worry a little less about me, and a little more about yourself." You see, I don't worry about you at all, if you go our and kill yourself tomorrow, its none of my business. It matters to me on a human scale, but physically, it doesn't harm me one way or the other. I worry about what goes on in my world, and try not to tell anyone else what to do. However, I stand up when others start forcing their religious ideals down my throat.
"Deal with yourself, instead of telling everyone else what to do">>> Yep! You have summed up exactly what I am trying to impart. Thing is, that this is a revolving door. It swings in all directions. OK, I have an issue with a church coming to my door , kids in tow, to preach their dogma on my time and dime. So, I just tell them to leave. The 'secular' types, however, are not innocent of their own brand of fire and brimstone. My take on the whole bloody mess is this, mind yer own business, and ya won't be mindin' mine. I do not advocate the teaching of dogma in schools, or anything similar, and that includes 'secular' dogma as well. My kids should come away from school knowing how to read, write and do their cyphers proper. Not with a head full of some advocacy groups mush and drivel. On the religion issue, some folks need to just flat lighten up and realize that this is still America. The good ol' US of A. I'm sick to death of certain groups of people bashing Christians, specifically, with any handy stick, and preaching 'tolerance' out of the other side of their mouth. Tolerance for everything EXCEPT Christianity , it seems. As I said, I am NOT a Christian, or any thing else as far as a 'faith' goes. So, this is coming from a 'secular' point of view. I can see the blatant predjudice and downright nastiness projected by the athiest, secular, anti religion (read anti Christian) types and I'm not a person of any faith. As I said, these types need to lighten up. Practice what THEY preach, for a change.
During the last presidential election I read an Interesting article on the internet.
It concerned a pastor from Rio Rancho NM, a Mr Robert Hall.
It seems that he was endorsing Republican candidates from his pulpit, he was'nt alone, in 31 churches across the United States pastors were doing exactly the same thing.
As far as I know non of these churches have had their tax-exempt status revoked.
Then there are church leaders like Fred Phelps & Steve Anderson of The Faithful Word Baptist church who live to spread hatred & bigotry amongst their congregation. They benefit from tax- exempt status, why have the US goverment not take any action against these people & their churches.
And then there are the Democrat political candidates who regularly speak from the pulpits of black churches. Not only is it tolerated, it's expected.
So what's the difference - other than that you like Democrats and don't like Republicans?
There is a big difference between Religious political persuasion, and Atheist political persuausion.
That difference is, that most Atheists don't want to tell you what to do. Atheists are fighting for you to do whatever the hell you want. They don't want creationism taught in school because it is trying to indoctrinate all of the other children with a religious ideal. Creationism isn't based on good scientific study, its based on a religious idea. Same thing with laws being passed based on religious moralitiy. There is a difference between human morality, and religious morality.
This is the difference that I see. Now I don't support telling a child they can't bring a bible to school, and I haven't heard of that. I don't support banning children from praying on their own at school, and I can't say as I've heard of that either. Those two cases would be going to far in the other direction.
What I support, and what the founding fathers support, is passing laws based on the public good only. For instance, whats wrong with homosexual marriage? Other countries have it, and they haven't fallen into the ocean. Are you afraid it may harm your since of morality? If so, deal with yourself, instead of telling everyone else what to do.
I say this so often to religious folks who try and tell me what I'm doing with my life is wrong, "Maybe you should worry a little less about me, and a little more about yourself." You see, I don't worry about you at all, if you go our and kill yourself tomorrow, its none of my business. It matters to me on a human scale, but physically, it doesn't harm me one way or the other. I worry about what goes on in my world, and try not to tell anyone else what to do. However, I stand up when others start forcing their religious ideals down my throat.
Yeah, the religious Atheists want you to do whatever you want to do. But you CAN'T teach anything but evolution in the public schools. You CAN'T have any religious symbols displayed anywhere that might offend an Atheist - whether on public or private property. You CAN'T have any sort of prayers in public schools. You CAN'T celebrate holidays as religious holidays, but accepting pay for not working on those holidays is fine.
Other than these, and a myriad of other things Atheists insist you CAN'T do, everybody is pretty much free to do whatever we want.
Omaha you did some research? lol Unfortunately you are lacking the tools. Every business and every house who has people who work pay the same taxes as the church employees. We are talking property tax- we pay they don't. You once heard the words "separation of church and state" and now you want people to think you can actually use this phrase in a real argument. The state isn't interfering with the right to worship by taxing all buildings equally. In fact if you understood rather than just copied and pasted that phrase its more the OTHER WAY AROUND. By exempting churches the state is interfering and giving them a preference.
Stick to Jonah was eaten by a big whale and stop demonstrating why there is an inverse relationship between how zealous, and how educated you are.
First of all, I'd STRONGLY suggest you learn how to read - and do so BEFORE you post nonsense like this.
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First, that little term needs to be clarified. The Framers put that little clause in our Constitution to keep what happened in Europe and England from happening here. The Vatican calling the shots, and holding the reins of power, semi covertly, from the pulpit, altar, whatever. These days, many people are taking the intent of the separation to a far flung extreme, actually going as far as to say that atheism is the true intent. Not hardly. Our founders were merely taking a lesson from things like the Inquisition, and oh so many other power grabs by the church. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not kids can pray in school, or have a Bible study group as an extracurricular club. The lengths that anti religion groups have gone to in many things is as much a perversion of the intent of the first amendment as outright banning of a faith in favor of another. Face it folks, by not allowing kids ,who wish to, to bring their faith to school with them, in a private way, we are supporting atheism as, basically, a state sponsored belief. Sam with taking God out of the pledge, prayer before things like sessions of congress etc. Many people wish to see ALL reference to faith struck away. This is a dangerous idea, just as dangerous as allowing a large central church to dominate our government from behind a curtain. FREEDOM of religion means just that. We are free to worship , or not, as we see fit. There are just as many wacko atheists out there who wish to make power bids as there are 'churches'. I'm not a religious person, at all, but the promotion of a complete lack of faith , in all aspects of our governance, in our schools etc, smacks of a rank hypocracy, by uninformed and self righteous groups who want to read far more into the first amendment than is actually there. LMAO, and they call the religious groups self righteous.
Yep! You have summed up exactly what I am trying to impart. Thing is, that this is a revolving door. It swings in all directions. OK, I have an issue with a church coming to my door , kids in tow, to preach their dogma on my time and dime. So, I just tell them to leave. The 'secular' types, however, are not innocent of their own brand of fire and brimstone. My take on the whole bloody mess is this, mind yer own business, and ya won't be mindin' mine. I do not advocate the teaching of dogma in schools, or anything similar, and that includes 'secular' dogma as well. My kids should come away from school knowing how to read, write and do their cyphers proper. Not with a head full of some advocacy groups mush and drivel. On the religion issue, some folks need to just flat lighten up and realize that this is still America. The good ol' US of A. I'm sick to death of certain groups of people bashing Christians, specifically, with any handy stick, and preaching 'tolerance' out of the other side of their mouth. Tolerance for everything EXCEPT Christianity , it seems. As I said, I am NOT a Christian, or any thing else as far as a 'faith' goes. So, this is coming from a 'secular' point of view. I can see the blatant predjudice and downright nastiness projected by the athiest, secular, anti religion (read anti Christian) types and I'm not a person of any faith. As I said, these types need to lighten up. Practice what THEY preach, for a change.
