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Old 02-12-2010, 04:55 PM
 
871 posts, read 1,606,781 times
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Quote:
If you have no education well your poor because you can't find a good job. That is squarely your fault if your in that position.
the rest of your post isn't realistic. but this snippet is obviously unrealistic but highlights the pyramid scheme. can't find a 'good' job? are those bad jobs lower pay because the person isn't educated? if it is, then you're right. otherwise, you just pointed out the problem. it's like saying everyone's goal should be the town mayor because it's the only position that pays decent.

it's perfectly reasonable that harder and especially more complex jobs with more responsiblity should pay a lot more and they usually are. but it's too unbalanced as it is right now. there are people who get paid millions more than is probably fair or equitable and those who barely make enough to survive. you have to have incentive to be productive and keep people productive but too much imbalance on either extreme will result in taking advantage and trouble.

japan is a good example of more equitable wage distribution. they have a larger middle class. their ceo's are wealthy but reasonably wealthy, not grossly wealthy. this does not mean that a street sweeper should get paid the same as a doctor or ceo etc. it just means that if people are not paid enough for their work, they will not want to or be disgruntled.

Last edited by rory00; 02-12-2010 at 05:03 PM..
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:53 PM
 
9,803 posts, read 15,878,553 times
Reputation: 8262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revol100 View Post
Wonderful post +1.

The attitude towards the poor in America is a disgrace. No wonder many turn to crime here.

Not everyone is blessed with the attributes needed to succeed in today's world. The "choices" of those who are less fortunate are far more limited than those who are born either wealthy (or middle class), with good looks, a stable upbringing, free from major illness and normal brain chemistry.

Of course, a lot of it (success) boils down to luck too.

In 1988, a major boat manufacturer in a city with a population of 7,500 was going to double its workforce and expand from 300 employees to 600 employees. Since that county always had a high rate of people recieving public assistance, the boat company got govt funding where 25% of the workers wages would be reimbursed by the Federal Govt and classified as --training wages--for the first 3 months.

Akk application screening was being done at a govt office downtown and not at the plant.

I needed a job then and went to the boat plant ( unaware of tha govt program) I got referred to the downtown govt office.

I was told I didn't qualify for 2 reasons-----I was not a resident of that county and was not on public assistance. However, the office guy said I had a good history and would forward my application with an attached slip stating I was not eligible for the company to get re-imbursed but I was recommended.

I did get hired-------hard work,good pay,good medical, 401k.
Many of those hired under the program were good workers. Many of them were not and complained back to the office asking if they could quit and go back on welfare.

One young single mother was crying after work one day stating she was now working hard ,paying for everything herself, and wasn't that much farther ahead than when on welfare.

The foreman told her that she should take pride in the fact that every bill she pays now-------rent,food, daycare etc.----- she was paying with her own labor and doing it without any welfare.

Her reply was------" Big Deal ! "

One day I had a dental appointment downtown and stopped at that office. I introduced myself and stated I just wanted to thank them for sending my application in with the rest and their recommendation that I get hired.

They nearly fell off their chairs in amazement !

Out of over 300+ people that got sent there, they stated I was the only 1 who had ever thanked them.

A woman at a different desk said she did get lots of calls. Calls from many of the 300+ who were angry with her for forcing them to take a job and asking if they could quit and go back on welfare.

Yup, so much for wanting opportunity !
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:04 PM
 
116 posts, read 80,917 times
Reputation: 84
Other countries in the developed world don't seem to have these horribly ignorant attitudes towards the poor. Most other developed nations have a lower level of income disparity than the US. As someone pointed out, you may not be filthy rich, but if you work hard, you have a much higher probability of being middle class and you'll have a comfortable life, even if not so excessive as here. People in the US strive for something that often boils down to plain old luck. You can go to school, racking up tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt, yet not "make it". Having a major illness in the US could ruin you and your family. Other countries don't have that problem. Getting an education in say, France will cost you far less than here, for far more guaranteed results. America is not the land of opportunity you make it out to be. It's all one big lottery, preserved by the notion of the "American Dream", designed to keep you controlled by your corporate masters, in every sense. What's the bet that if US society was more of a level playing field to begin with, there would be far fewer people on welfare, less crime and a more cultured, compassionate and more "free" society. Then again, many people don't want that; they'd rather go on hating poor people to make themselves feel superior, or perhaps they're so blinded by their own ignorance that they'd rather dismiss it as "liberal".

....just my opinion.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:08 PM
 
116 posts, read 80,917 times
Reputation: 84
Rory,

Great post. You've pretty much said what I tried to say in my (later) post, only more eloquently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rory00 View Post
the rest of your post isn't realistic. but this snippet is obviously unrealistic but highlights the pyramid scheme. can't find a 'good' job? are those bad jobs lower pay because the person isn't educated? if it is, then you're right. otherwise, you just pointed out the problem. it's like saying everyone's goal should be the town mayor because it's the only position that pays decent.

it's perfectly reasonable that harder and especially more complex jobs with more responsiblity should pay a lot more and they usually are. but it's too unbalanced as it is right now. there are people who get paid millions more than is probably fair or equitable and those who barely make enough to survive. you have to have incentive to be productive and keep people productive but too much imbalance on either extreme will result in taking advantage and trouble.

japan is a good example of more equitable wage distribution. they have a larger middle class. their ceo's are wealthy but reasonably wealthy, not grossly wealthy. this does not mean that a street sweeper should get paid the same as a doctor or ceo etc. it just means that if people are not paid enough for their work, they will not want to or be disgruntled.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:10 PM
 
871 posts, read 1,606,781 times
Reputation: 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
In 1988, a major boat manufacturer in a city with a population of 7,500 was going to double its workforce and expand from 300 employees to 600 employees. Since that county always had a high rate of people recieving public assistance, the boat company got govt funding where 25% of the workers wages would be reimbursed by the Federal Govt and classified as --training wages--for the first 3 months.

Akk application screening was being done at a govt office downtown and not at the plant.

I needed a job then and went to the boat plant ( unaware of tha govt program) I got referred to the downtown govt office.

I was told I didn't qualify for 2 reasons-----I was not a resident of that county and was not on public assistance. However, the office guy said I had a good history and would forward my application with an attached slip stating I was not eligible for the company to get re-imbursed but I was recommended.

I did get hired-------hard work,good pay,good medical, 401k.
Many of those hired under the program were good workers. Many of them were not and complained back to the office asking if they could quit and go back on welfare.

One young single mother was crying after work one day stating she was now working hard ,paying for everything herself, and wasn't that much farther ahead than when on welfare.

The foreman told her that she should take pride in the fact that every bill she pays now-------rent,food, daycare etc.----- she was paying with her own labor and doing it without any welfare.

Her reply was------" Big Deal ! "

One day I had a dental appointment downtown and stopped at that office. I introduced myself and stated I just wanted to thank them for sending my application in with the rest and their recommendation that I get hired.

They nearly fell off their chairs in amazement !

Out of over 300+ people that got sent there, they stated I was the only 1 who had ever thanked them.

A woman at a different desk said she did get lots of calls. Calls from many of the 300+ who were angry with her for forcing them to take a job and asking if they could quit and go back on welfare.

Yup, so much for wanting opportunity !
lol. what era do you live in? your example has several potholes. for one, if they could just quit and live on welfare, then that was a problem with the welfare system then which was supporting people for no reason. it was 1988? also, it's an unusual and unique example of a company specifically hiring with that criteria.

i doubt anyone can just get welfare to live on today just for no reason except joblessness. if you think you can, go down to a welfare office and ask them what you qualify for if you had no job.

besides, there will always be degenerates and that's why you have to give incentives for people to work by not handing them everything on a silver platter.

decent paying jobs are hard to come by anywhere. even the types of people you describe are in competition for jobs. i've applied for jobs which i was well qualified for and was not hired and they were not that skilled. it could be something simple as word processing. it is so competitive that the only jobs you have a sure chance of getting is maybe cashier at a grocery store and often they don't even let you work overtime.

it's always been tough out there so it's hard to believe that people get jobs so easily and everything is handed to them as it's being portrayed. i've never had it that easy ever. not only do you have to face subtle discrimination which you can't prove in the hiring process but also often in the working environment. people often act like they have a right to dictate who they work around and as long as they personally like them. it's so much petty bull out there.

this is why it's best to go for the most conscientious positions that require more serious application such as doctor or very technical fields. everything else is so tied with politics and human bias. often getting work feels like a popularity contest, rather than whether you can do the job. that's because there are plenty of people to do the job so you are expendable. even more bizarre is those who have the power to hire, unconsciously hire people that they personally prefer or would 'fit' in. it's always been this way from my experience. it is not aboveboard or realistic. it's ridiculous and no wonder some people just choose to be homeless. only a human skank would want to deal with that human nastiness day in and day out.

it angered me that i was not hired for many jobs that i could do but people pretend that getting work is so easy and available. it's not that easy at all, especially jobs that pay decent enough to live on. everyone is on those jobs like bees to honey and i'm talking about anything that pays ten dollars an hour on up or anything a smidgen above minimum wage.

Last edited by rory00; 02-12-2010 at 06:27 PM..
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:13 PM
 
2,145 posts, read 4,992,199 times
Reputation: 1666
b/
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzar721 View Post
Every day I am disgusted as to what I see going on here on Long Island. I am a middle class American citizen. I do not receive any government assistance. I work hard for everything that I have, and I understand the value of a dollar.
Welfare is a means of getting on your feet, not a way of life! Now I am not talking about EVERYONE on welfare. There are many people on public assistance who use it how it is meant to be used - as a hand to help you up when you are down. Unfortunately, the welfare system is flawed and therefore abused.
When I go food shopping I look for items on sale, purchase in bulk, & buy non brand name items to get the most for my money. I have noticed customers with gold chains & these fancy new expensive cell phones on line paying with food stamps. Not only that, their carts are filled with all NAME BRAND items regardless of if they are on sale or not. Steaks, candy, cookies, soda ect without regards to price. Many times I have been approached by a person offering to sell me food stamps for 50% cash. What about the drug addicts that receive all these benefits? They get health care, schooling, all kinds of public assistance, even DENTAL! I see many drug addicts on welfare who use all of that money on drugs, have no food in the house, no clothes for their kids yet nothing is done. After making several phone calls about a family with kids in a very unhealthy environment I asked the State employee about issuing drug tests. I was told that it was too costly to drug test everyone on public assistance and also an INVASION of their PRIVACY!!! Are you kidding me? They are being supported by the taxpayers & we're worried about invasion of privacy?!? What about protecting an investment or looking out for the innocent children being neglected and abused? A neighbors 3 year old child was walking 2 houses down from where they lived. He wanted to be with mommy who walked down the block & no one else in the house was watching him as he ran right out the front door! This was not the first time this has happened and there has been complaints filed yet nothing has changed.
Over the summer, president Obama issued $200 for every child living in a household on welfare. This was in the form of $200 per child being put onto their EBT card. Most kids from families NOT on welfare that DO NOT spend $200 on school supplies. This one family in particular, with 4 eligable children, received a total of $800. The mother then went down to a church where she received a voucher for the thrift store AND school supplies. The youngest of the children received NOTHING. The other 3 children each got $30 to spend, plus a couple of school books. Think back to the end of the summer. I find it kind of ironic that after that money was given, the amount of old tv sets & empty new TV boxes I saw in the trash.
I know of THREE families all on welfare, & all living in the same house. NONE of them work! They live in a very nice house. They receive help from the state with the rent on the house, & they also rent the house out to the 2 other families! All three families are on welfare but the other 2 families use the address of family members which is never investigated or verified. To top it off, all THREE families receive a fuel voucher - yet 2 weeks ago they called asking to borrow money because they were OUT OF FUEL. For TWO days they had no heat or hot water. There are 8 children from the age of 2 - 13 in that house! (Not to mention 6 adults & 3 children over 18). I failed to mention that 8 people in that house smoke cigarettes & 7 have cell phones. One person even has 2 cell phones. Mind you, very nice phones at that.
So you mean to tell me that the children have to suffer with NO HEAT & HOT WATER because they cannot afford oil yet they all have a full pack of smokes & a fancy new phone?!??!?!
Something is seriously wrong with the system. Where is the incentive for these people to go out & get a job?
I live in CA and have for ten years,and I couldn't agree more! And I was previously always democrat in elections.
It's gone too far,and too quickly,and is only getting worse.
And yes,people buying rims and flatscreens with their social aid,and with their falsified tax returns from around the country [my husband sees these in his fraud dept. every day at work...'braiding hair and childcare' and you made 12k? well,you have two 'kids' on your return and you get 9k for a refund. no joke. and they did not braid hair or do childcare,in case you didnt get it. lol this is really a second form of welfare...b/c the IRS looks a blind eye-knowing the money will go back into the consumer economy anyway,and it's a way to appease the disenfranchised. Plus,it's too expensive to take those types of cases to trial,so just fund them.]

People who are marginalized and disenfranchised are smart enough to milk the system.
I think what needs to change is the middle class finding their own loopholes b/c this sh*t sucks for those of us barely getting by,driving 15 yr old cars,and renting not owning,while paying 1/3 of our income or more to taxes.

I am not even going to read the rest of this thread-I am sure it's a live wire,this topic!

But I simply agree with what you have said,and I don't want this to become the UK where the dole is the norm and not a stigma. And it's far too detailed to discuss in one post-it seems anyone who says don't help people must be a republican fascist,in many people's eyes.

I am not;and I agree: there is a serious problem with the current system.
The end.

Last edited by lrmsd; 02-12-2010 at 06:15 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,310 posts, read 13,517,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrmsd View Post
People who are marginalized and disenfranchised are smart enough to milk the system.

I don't want this to become the UK where the dole is the norm and not a stigma. And it's far too detailed to discuss in one post - it seems anyone who says don't help people must be a republican fascist, in many people's eyes.

... there is a serious problem with the current system.
Any system that penalizes the productive and rewards the unproductive will collapse from the weight of parasitic infestation.

Before national socialism (1935), anyone who received public charity was a pauper. In case you are too young to know it, a pauper was an excepted class, the lowest of the low, and bereft of the rights, powers, privileges, and immunities of the free people. To become a pauper was so degrading that men would desert their families rather than "enter the poorhouse".
(Not that I approve of that tactic)

When FDR touted "Relief" to the masses, he lied to the people, by claiming that it was an "entitlement". But when you ask the Congressional Research Service, they say otherwise. They state that entitlements are synonymous with "gifts" and Congress has no contractual obligation to pay them. They are entirely at the discretion of government..

In short, "voluntary" enrollment into Social Security reduces the legal status of the participants to such a level, that Congress has been granted almost unlimited power over the people... by consent.

The Welfare system would transform if American people learned that they not only volunteered to pay the socialist taxes, but that they could volunteer out, and cease being a "person liable" to pay socialist taxes.

I suspect that once 51% of the productive Americans opt out, the remainder would swiftly collapse the program.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:37 PM
 
871 posts, read 1,606,781 times
Reputation: 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrmsd View Post
b/
People who are marginalized and disenfranchised are smart enough to milk the system.
heh, why are they being marginalized? if they are, then they have a right to milk a system to survive.

i've seen plenty of scum work cushy in jobs that i could have done but i was not hired. i worked three months in a temp agency at a corporation and worked harder than most other employees and i was still not hired because the managers didn't like me. there was absolutely no objective or technical reason why i would not be hired vs others there. it probably was some racial prejudice involved in that particular situation but that is not unusual, among other human biases and quirks. it's unfortunate that so many degenerate people make up a bulk of the work force but that is a reality. i cannot stand the idea that people get criticized for not having a job yet the ugly seedy truth is society plays favoritism in the hiring process. even worse, if they don't like you, they will do things to force you to quit or get you fired. sometimes, they need no reason to let you go.

those who deserve jobs isn't always everyone who has one. it's just not that simple.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:48 PM
 
116 posts, read 80,917 times
Reputation: 84
This isn't about "becoming like the UK" LOL. Besides, they are about to vote for a Conservative government, so the days of the dole being fashionable are over. Although I tend to lean to the left, sometimes right-wing tough love is needed. That's what's going to happen in the UK (my wife is British BTW).
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:15 PM
 
871 posts, read 1,606,781 times
Reputation: 451
i think the employment process is what's faulty too. it should be more objective and not up to a faulty human's personal assessment to decide the fate of another.

i remember i took all these tests for a position and i was still not hired. even the temp agency was shocked. i definitely could do the job well, it was clear. i could tell within five minutes of the interview that i was not going to be hired by the interviewer's body language etc and tone of voice. it just boiled down to simple human instinct/like/dislike. that is what's wrong! people should not have the right to get so comfortable that they think thier workplace is some personal turf to dictate who they want and not want based on subjective personal inclinations! that's why you have a life outside of work for that.

there should be strict and concrete guidelines on what is a quaification for a position and if a person qualifies for it, then they deserve the job! the hiring process is primitive and gives human apes the power to be arbitrary and judgemental. it makes my blood boil. even my school counselor told me what i already knew and that there are many people who have better jobs that i can do but they aren't even half as intelligent or productive. how did they get hired? i often hear idiotic customer service agents on the phone and i wonder how they got hired ad nauseum. considering i'm not that intellligent, it's saying a lot about society.

i'm so angry now.
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