People who choose a career for money are bad and selfish (employment, fast food)

[stan4]

Originally Posted by smartalx

YES! OF COURSE what other people do affects us. If someone chooses to be a doctor for the money instead of the altruism, their greediness can affect people's lives. And don't give me that, 'if they are good at it' line. Medicine is highly politicized. You brown nose your superiors in a hospital you'll rise through the ranks and become a rich Moderator cut: language in no time flat, while your altruistic college roommate is stuck in the trenches of the ER, actually caring about who lives and who dies.

In other words, your daughter is going to be a Lawyer. Architects don't make much money. They put in 60+ hours a week at work because they are passionate about their career. Money is not passion. If you are in it for the money, you aren't going to be an Architect.

No offense intented, but if you believe that, no amount of explaining is going to convince you. Your mind has been... influenced by materialism so much that you can't see how greed leads to a self-serving attitude, which can lead you to trivialize your fellow man. It's a slippery slope. And it begins by thinking that materialism isn't bad.

AND the only people I see who say things like that are people who are trying to justify their materialistic lifestyle, trying to tell the world that they aren't bad for splashing homeless people with their $100,000 vehicles.

I don't understand. How do you know whether or not someone is going into something because they love doing it or because they want the money?

And no amount of 'passion' is going to pay your bills. So money has to be some consideration here. Not to mention being a productive, tax-paying citizen.

Oh, btw, the comment about hospitals makes it clear you don't have any idea how medicine works.

[smartalx]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Jobs receive high pay according to how much somebody is willing to pay to have the job done. The End.

Which is why drug smugglers are paid more than teachers.

Actually jobs don't receive high pay according to how much someone is willing to pay, but rather how much they are willing to CHARGE other people for it. Not all of them, like your 15 year old neighbor mowing your lawn. But in the case of your doctor, teacher and FedEx welder, your employer pays them based on how much they can charge their clients. This is why teachers don't get paid as much as doctors. School administration can't raise taxes enough to pay teachers what they deserve. Hospital administration can charge health insurance companies (a corrupt industry in and of itself) a lot of money so they can pay doctors more than what they deserve.

[smartalx]

Originally Posted by stan4

I don't understand. How do you know whether or not someone is going into something because they love doing it or because they want the money?

That's what we are talking about. They TOLD the OP that they were in it for the money.

And no amount of 'passion' is going to pay your bills. So money has to be some consideration here. Not to mention being a productive, tax-paying citizen.

It doesn't take much to pay the bills really. A lot of our economy goes to paying people who get paid too much. Remember 90% of the wealth is held by 10% of the people. That means that the 90% of the people are paying for that 90% of the wealth. The doctor gets enough to buy three luxury cars, a 10,000 square foot house and a full time maid, and who foots the bill? Insurance. Who pays that? You. YOU pay for the doctor's luxury. Do they deserve it? 3 luxury cars? 10,000 square foot house? Really? No one deserves a $500,000 salary, I don't care who you are or what you've done. THAT is leeching off of society. Maybe the doctor doesn't make $500,000 but he definitely makes more than he deserves. I once dated a girl in high power banking. She made a lot of money. Her salary was 6 figures. Her annual bonus was 6 figures! And if she made a $100,000 bonus, THAT was BAD!!!! THAT was if she was on the verge of getting fired!!! And she was only a couple of years out of school. Sure, she worked hard. 80+ hours a week. You would think that they would double the staff so the college graduates wouldn't have to work so much. But then these college graduates wouldn't get paid as much. Talk about selfish. I'd MUCH rather get paid $50,000 a year and work 40 hours with a friend than get paid $100,000 and work 80 hours alone. Her boss made a multi-million dollar salary. and HIS boss made over $100,000,000 a year, BEFORE the bonus! Who pays those high salaries? WE DO!

Now, if we didn't pay so many people these outrageous salaries, think how far a teacher's $30,000 salary would go. Bread wouldn't be $2 a loaf. Gas wouldn't be $3+ a gallon. And a teacher could afford a decent home for his wife and kids without his wife needing to work.

I say again. People pay you not what you deserve, but how much they are able and willing to charge their clients and customers.

Oh, btw, the comment about hospitals makes it clear you don't have any idea how medicine works.

I think I know a bit more than you realize. I live in Houston, home of the largest and best medical complex in the world. My last job was working in Healthcare Architecture. A lot of my friends are doctors and nurses. I've dated my share of nurses. Some of my best friends are in medicine. I know all about the politics inside those hospital walls.

[Workin_Hard]

Originally Posted by smartalx

That's what we are talking about. They TOLD the OP that they were in it for the money.

It doesn't take much to pay the bills really. A lot of our economy goes to paying people who get paid too much. Remember 90% of the wealth is held by 10% of the people. That means that the 90% of the people are paying for that 90% of the wealth. The doctor gets enough to buy three luxury cars, a 10,000 square foot house and a full time maid, and who foots the bill? Insurance. Who pays that? You. YOU pay for the doctor's luxury. Do they deserve it? 3 luxury cars? 10,000 square foot house? Really? No one deserves a $500,000 salary, I don't care who you are or what you've done. THAT is leeching off of society. Maybe the doctor doesn't make $500,000 but he definitely makes more than he deserves. I once dated a girl in high power banking. She made a lot of money. Her salary was 6 figures. Her annual bonus was 6 figures! And if she made a $100,000 bonus, THAT was BAD!!!! THAT was if she was on the verge of getting fired!!! And she was only a couple of years out of school. Sure, she worked hard. 80+ hours a week. You would think that they would double the staff so the college graduates wouldn't have to work so much. But then these college graduates wouldn't get paid as much. Talk about selfish. I'd MUCH rather get paid $50,000 a year and work 40 hours with a friend than get paid $100,000 and work 80 hours alone. Her boss made a multi-million dollar salary. and HIS boss made over $100,000,000 a year, BEFORE the bonus! Who pays those high salaries? WE DO!

Now, if we didn't pay so many people these outrageous salaries, think how far a teacher's $30,000 salary would go. Bread wouldn't be $2 a loaf. Gas wouldn't be $3+ a gallon. And a teacher could afford a decent home for his wife and kids without his wife needing to work.

I say again. People pay you not what you deserve, but how much they are able and willing to charge their clients and customers.

Tell me how you define "outrageous" salaries?

It's called supply and demand and is the basis for a capitalistic economy. Those who are willing to work harder (in the right way, not just physical labor), or are able to provide a relatively scarce product in high demand, are paid more. Labor, whether it be physical or that associated with commonly held skills, is cheap. Expertise is expensive. Who are you to determine who "deserves" what? If the doctor in your example provides life saving services, why cannot he charge a premium rate for doing so, considering that he studied long and hard to be able to obtain the skills to do so? And what does the size of his house have to do with it? Are you a fan of the 'from-each-according-to-his-ability-and-to-each-according-to-his-need' club? Do you like the idea of equalzing everyone according to your standards? Remove the rewards for smart hard work and you remove the motivation to obtain expertise.

Here's a real world scenario: Couple A, with four grad degress between them and specializing in high demand skills, each earn well over the six figure mark. Their house is just under 6K sq ft. Their 3 y.o. daughter goes to a private preschool, and is becoming fluent in two additional languages with the help of tutors. He just paid $60K for a new SUV. The guy across the street, Couple B, is a handyman working about 60 hrs per week. His wife is a bookkeeper. Their kid is parked in front of the TV all day every day eating Twinkies. He drives a car inherited from his mom. They're facing foreclosure due to a $3k+/mo mortgage. Now tell me about your vision of social justice here? Who's a leech? Who worked smarter to put themselves in a workable situation? Who developed marketable skills? Who put off immediate gratification in their younger years and really earned a better lifestyle as a result? Should the security guard at my building, or the fry cook in the cafeteria (both of whom I agree provide a needed, although not rare, service) be parking their BMWs next to mine - by your standards?

Who decides what is reasonable? You? Do I hear 'sour grapes' here?

[smartalx]

Originally Posted by Workin_Hard

Who decides what is reasonable? You?

No. Society. Not society controlled by the top 10%, but society controlled by the bottom 90%.

And you seem to have ignored where I wrote:

"Actually jobs don't receive high pay according to how much someone is willing to pay, but rather how much they are willing to CHARGE other people for it."

THAT is the truth of the matter. Selfishness rules. You competed in your youth against society, and you are winning. Society is paying for your 60k SUV. Not you.

[Workin_Hard]

Originally Posted by smartalx

And you seem to have ignored where I wrote:

"Actually jobs don't receive high pay according to how much someone is willing to pay, but rather how much they are willing to CHARGE other people for it."

THAT is the truth of the matter. Selfishness rules. You competed in your youth against society, and you are winning. Society is paying for your 60k SUV. Not you.

No, I can attempt to charge whatever I want for my skills, but if there is no buyer willing to pay that price, I will be unable to obtain what I ask. The buyer of any product or service, "the market", determines the going rate.

I never competed against society. I am part of society as much as you are. I pay for anything with what I earn from selling my services; society pays only in that my earnings are part of the economic flow of money brought about by reinvestment. There is an exchange - skills or product for money, which is a medium of value. It's to society's benefit that I reinvest my earnings back onto the economic engine, whether in the form of buying SUVs or loaves of bread, rather than pile the cash under the mattress.

[smartalx]

Oh, and you know what? 95% of everyone who did what you did end up the way you do: "successful." Well, what about the other 5%? What did they do wrong? Nothing. They did EVERYTHING you did. They worked hard in High School. Went to the best universities. Graduated Magna Cu.m Laude Moderator cut: Off topic Worked hard. But there just aren't enough jobs for every qualified candidate. What about those 5%? They are just a statistic. Hard work and education aren't all that is necessary for success. Good luck accounts for the majority of your success. Sure it's hard work to create a fortune 500 company. But it takes luck to get the opportunity to combine your hard work with the recipe for success. Why even being born with the right parents and into the right home with the right personality is nothing but luck. "Good genes" is nothing but luck!

So, what happens to that other (growing) 5% that did everything "right" but still failed? They realize that money isn't everything and they fight the 95% who think it is.

[Workin_Hard]

So you want the bottom 90% who is not capable of producing the bulk of value dictating how the value produced by the top 10% should be allocated? The top 10% in your world is not entitled to the fruits of their labors, but this should be reallocated amongst the entire group in an equitable fashion as determined by the bottom 90%.

So the factory janitor should be driving the same car and living in the same neighborhood as the factory owner? Sorry, Mr. Orwell, but it's not 1984. Such an arrangement removes all motivation from that top 10% who is capable of producing at a higher level since there will be no reward for doing so. Society will provide the same end result no matter how much or how little you produce.

[smartalx]

It's fine to get what you deserve. But you don't deserve to get that much. The market has been skewed to favor the already wealthy and the people who can afford to get that higher education from their parents.

You do reap what you sow, but in today's market economy, the produce from your 100 acre farm goes to market with your neighbor's produce from across the street. He has a 50 acre farm. Yet you come home with 90% of the cash. That's not fair. You should have 66.6% of the cash and he should have 33.3%.

[Workin_Hard]

Originally Posted by smartalx

Oh, and you know what? 95% of everyone who did what you did end up the way you do: "successful." Well, what about the other 5%? What did they do wrong? Nothing. They did EVERYTHING you did. They worked hard in High School. Went to the best universities. Graduated Magna Cu.m Laude Worked hard. But there just aren't enough jobs for every qualified candidate. What about those 5%? They are just a statistic.

Life's not fair. Kinda makes you want to learn from failures and work a little smarter/harder. Success most often is tied to the ability to make good choices. The ability to make good choices comes from experience. Experience comes through having made some bad choices. In other words, don't keep banging your head off the same wall.

Originally Posted by smartalx

Hard work and education aren't all that is necessary for success.

No, but it sure beats laziness and ignorance as part of the plan.

Originally Posted by smartalx

Good luck accounts for the majority of your success. Sure it's hard work to create a fortune 500 company. But it takes luck to get the opportunity to combine your hard work with the recipe for success. Why even being born with the right parents and into the right home with the right personality is nothing but luck. "Good genes" is nothing but luck!

So, what happens to that other (growing) 5% that did everything "right" but still failed? They realize that money isn't everything and they fight the 95% who think it is.

Still, a 95% success rate speaks for itself. Pretty good by any measure.

You repeatedly cite "luck" as a factor. That's superstition. If there's "good luck" as you believe, then there's also "bad luck". (Can't have one without the other, right?) So you believe there's a supernatural power, possibly sentient, that's actively involved in keeping you from succeeding? An angry God, perhaps? So you're then convinced that no matter what you do, you can never succeed since (God, Allah, Buddah, the stars, etc.) are against you. So why try? Such belief becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure. It's easier to sit in the trailer sucking beer or shooting drugs than to try when you "know" you can't win. Or, plan #2 according to you, is to demand that those who are successful give up that which they have earned so you can have some.

Moderator cut: Please discuss the topic, not each other.