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how do you propose to get the genetic resistance that exists in trifoliate citrus into sweet oranges, tangerines, etc.?
imidacloprid is the same neonicotinoid insect neurotoxin that has been implicated in colony collapse disorder in honeybees.
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alternatively, you could use modern science to move two ancient and 100% natural defensin genes from spinach to citrus that would confer a very high degree of tolerance to any/all citrus cultivars you wish to protect.
i really don't get why that latter possibility seems so undesirable.
how do you propose to get the genetic resistance that exists in trifoliate citrus into sweet oranges, tangerines, etc.?
The same way they "got it into" the US-897 mandarin hybrids... crossbreeding.
Most (if not all) species in the citrus genera, being closely related, have the inate natural ability and potential to cross-pollinate and produce hybrids. Spinach, not being in the same family or genus as citrus, does not.
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imidacloprid is the same neonicotinoid insect neurotoxin that has been implicated in colony collapse disorder in honeybees.
Agreed... pesticides have been implicated, but so have GMO crops. A multitude of various studies have uncovered many correlating factors, but as yet no definitive link has been proven. Correlation does not prove causation... on either side.
It is inconsistent to accept implication as valid in an argument against one thing you oppose while dismissing implication as valid in an argument against something you support. You can't have it both ways.
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alternatively, you could use modern science to move two ancient and 100% natural defensin genes from spinach to citrus that would confer a very high degree of tolerance to any/all citrus cultivars you wish to protect.
i really don't get why that latter possibility seems so undesirable.
And you never will because you have already decided that artificial transgenic manipulation is acceptable. You may choose to believe that those who object are simply ignorant of how science works or are overly paranoid and superstitious; you are certainly entitled to your beliefs.
While the expected result of the genetic engineering is certainly desirable in this instance, the means are objectionable to many. The reasons for the objection are many and depend on the individual.
In my case, the primary sources of my objections are 1) belief in exercising caution, especially where "miracles" and "easy shortcuts" are concerned, because I am a firm believer in the law of unintended consequences; 2) that if the traits contained in one organism were intended to be possessed in another organism, those traits (or the genetic potential for them) would already exist in the second organism, or the two organisms would be able share their DNA by natural means in order to pass on these traits; and 3) humans do not have the intrinsic right to demand immediate satisfaction of our desires, especially when those desires violate natural order and laws because the universe does not exist for our convenience.
These are my beliefs and define my perspective when I assess potential solutions. I am rational, so if all other non-invasive alternatives have been exhausted and failed to solve the problem or make the problem manageable, then I accept transgenics may be the only acceptable solution. However, it is my position, that GMO should be the FINAL consideration because it is the ONLY option remaining, but that it should never be selected simply because its convenient or just because we can.
So, based on that... the poll in the OP does not contain an appropriate selection for my position: "I would support this solution if it were the only solution."
It looks like the majority of voters at this post are against GMO's.
For those of you who believe GMO's are ok I suggest you do a little research and learn the truth. If nothing else check out the effect of GMO corn in Mexico and South America.
It looks like the majority of voters at this post are against GMO's.
so it seems. given the nature of this particular forum, i guess its not surprising. i'd probably get a much different answer on the science forum, since those people haven't been gobbling hysterical propaganda.
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For those of you who believe GMO's are ok I suggest you do a little research and learn the truth. If nothing else check out the effect of GMO corn in Mexico and South America.
i am one of those people, and i have been doing actual research on genetically modified plants for the better part of twelve years.
A blight comes along and is seen to destroy entire orchards.
But hold on a minute those are commercial orchards. Which means that every rootstock is a clone propagated from one tree a hundred years ago. And every cultivar [the top scion wood] is also clone propagated from one selected tree and these two were grafted together.
The actual diversity is zero in that orchard.
One species of bug rose to the top and decided that it likes that one tree. The fact that the tree has 100Million clones of itself is the problem.
If you planted an orchard of 1,000 trees all from seed, then all of their genetics would be slightly different. The bug would only like some of them. Some of the trees would be wiped out, and some would not. The result would be that we would have select varieties that are resistant.
This 'problem' is not a new one. It is not of such a magnitude that only GMO can save us.
i would bet thousands of citrus farmers would disagree, as would orange juice fans.
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Originally Posted by forest beekeeper
A blight comes along and is seen to destroy entire orchards.
But hold on a minute those are commercial orchards. Which means that every rootstock is a clone propagated from one tree a hundred years ago. And every cultivar [the top scion wood] is also clone propagated from one selected tree and these two were grafted together.
it's not limited to commercial orchards.
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Q. Where is citrus greening established in the
world? A. Citrus greening is established in numerous African,
Asian, and South American countries, including:
Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brazil, Burundi, Cambodia,
Cameroon, Central African Republic, China, Comoros,
Ethiopia, the French island of Reunion, Hong Kong,
India, Indonesia, Japan, Kenya, Laos, Madagascar,
Malawi, Malaysia, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nepal,
Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Rwanda,
Saudi Arabia, Somalia, South Africa, Sri Lanka,
Swaziland, Taiwan, Tanzania, Thailand, Vietnam,
Yemen, and Zimbabwe.
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The actual diversity is zero in that orchard.
One species of bug rose to the top and decided that it likes that one tree. The fact that the tree has 100Million clones of itself is the problem.
If you planted an orchard of 1,000 trees all from seed, then all of their genetics would be slightly different. The bug would only like some of them. Some of the trees would be wiped out, and some would not. The result would be that we would have select varieties that are resistant.
there are no resistant, naturally-occuring orange varieties. all citrus is affected. this has all been hashed out earlier in the thread, anyway.
breeders around the world, especially china, have been trying to come up with resistant varieties for years, with no success.
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This 'problem' is not a new one.
i find it very interesting that you put quotation marks around the term problem. are you insinuating that a disease that has caused billions of dollars in losses worldwide is not truly a problem?
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It is not of such a magnitude that only GMO can save us.
ok, what is your solution that thousands of breeders and researchers worldwide have been unable to discover?
... i find it very interesting that you put quotation marks around the term problem. are you insinuating that a disease that has caused billions of dollars in losses worldwide is not truly a problem?
ok, what is your solution that thousands of breeders and researchers worldwide have been unable to discover?
This is not the first time that a disease/pest has came along and nearly wiped out a species of crop.
This afternoon, I was given 5 chestnut sprouts. They came from two trees that are the survivors from an orchard of twenty.
This is how it is done.
Something comes along and wipes out 'all', oh but wait there are a few survivors, maybe 0.001% of the species survived. Those surviving plants breed [you can not use more clones], and you grow those plants. Most of them will die, but from that second generation's breeding you get a third generation that is stronger, more resistant.
What I was given today are F4 plant genetics.
I did not say that this is 'un-discover-able'. There is a process. The process works.
This is not the first time that a disease/pest has came along and nearly wiped out a species of crop.
This afternoon, I was given 5 chestnut sprouts. They came from two trees that are the survivors from an orchard of twenty.
This is how it is done.
Something comes along and wipes out 'all', oh but wait there are a few survivors, maybe 0.001% of the species survived. Those surviving plants breed [you can not use more clones], and you grow those plants. Most of them will die, but from that second generation's breeding you get a third generation that is stronger, more resistant.
What I was given today are F4 plant genetics.
I did not say that this is 'un-discover-able'. There is a process. The process works.
Yeah, the Chestnut Foundation seems to think they have some blight resistant chestnuts now. It took around a century but it's been done. The butternuts are being wiped out right now, so there's a nationwide search for the survivors that are healthy. The American elm has been saved with varieties that resist the disease that wiped them out. Genetic engineering isn't really needed in most instances if we're patient.
Something to note, though, is that if we were more careful about our importing we wouldn't have to contend with so many of these problems. Butternut canker, chestnut blight, Dutch elm disease, all are here because of trade...
This is not the first time that a disease/pest has came along and nearly wiped out a species of crop.
This afternoon, I was given 5 chestnut sprouts. They came from two trees that are the survivors from an orchard of twenty.
This is how it is done.
Something comes along and wipes out 'all', oh but wait there are a few survivors, maybe 0.001% of the species survived. Those surviving plants breed [you can not use more clones], and you grow those plants. Most of them will die, but from that second generation's breeding you get a third generation that is stronger, more resistant.
What I was given today are F4 plant genetics.
I did not say that this is 'un-discover-able'. There is a process. The process works.
chestnuts resprout over and over again, only to be killed back by chestnut blight, then resprout, ad nauseum. if your sprouts came from trees, why are these trees sprouting in the first place? it's because they are continuously killed back by the fungus, but the roots stay alive. so, unfortunately, i wouldn't get my hopes up if i were you.
how long have we been waiting for a truly chestnut-blight-resistant chestnut to emerge from traditional breeding programs? 60 years? 70?
we should wait 70+ years for this 'process' to develop for citrus, while in the meantime billions of dollars worth of production gets wiped out by a disease which we appear to have true remedy for, simply because a certain contingent is terrified of the idea of putting a couple of spinach genes into citrus?
Last edited by uggabugga; 05-02-2012 at 07:44 PM..
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