Hydrogen Fuel Cells to Replace Diesel Generators on Hawaiian Barges

[Zot]

Originally Posted by OpenD

It's zero emission, for one thing. And it doesn't have all those pesky fossil fuel problems, like toxic spills and residual contamination. To me, that's a net gain in sustainability.

Without knowing the source for hydrogen, it isn't possible to determine if the project is green. Most fuel cells create hydrogen on the fly by burning natural gas. Mobile fuel cells tend to use compressed natural gas or hydrogen which was created by natural gas.

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by Zot

Without knowing the source for hydrogen, it isn't possible to determine if the project is green.

True, but hydrogen fuel cells are a greenER solution than running a diesel, and they have zero-emissions, except for a small amount of clean water. That's why so many hydrogen fuel cell powered cars are about to hit the market in Southern California, starting this fall. As a proof of concept, this is a transitional step.

Most fuel cells create hydrogen on the fly by burning natural gas.

This is a misunderstanding. First, there is no burning. And most of the hydrogen currently used to power fuel cells is produced at oil and gas refineries, where $100 Billion worth of it is generated each year. About half of it is consumed in the refinery process. The rest is used in various commercial products. Some is now being used as the energy source for fuel cells.

In terms of energy use, there's a kind of chicken and egg transition taking place. In order for there to be any real demand for hydrogen fuel cells there has to be an infrastructure in place to supply the hydrogen, while it's hard to justify the infrastructure until there is proven demand for it. I think as soon as the hydrogen fuel-cell Hyundais and Toyotas and other major brands start hitting L.A. streets this year and next there will be a big upturn in hydrogen use by consumers, and that will feed development of the hydrolysis and photolysis technologies for generating hydrogen from water. Once generating hydrogen using solar power is practical, then the demand for hydrogen from conventional sources will be reduced, and it will become a truly green process.

[Dakster]

The real catch is when Gas stations outside of California start putting in hydrogen filling stations. Then you know it has caught on.

Hydrogen in the beginning will have the same short comings as a pure BEV. Which is where to fill up/charge up when outside of your home area? And if you run out how does you buddy bring you a 5 gal can of electricity or hydrogen.

I am not against new technology - as most of you know I have an EREV and I would have looked at getting a Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicle, but they are not sold in my state. Just pointing out more cart and the horse analogies. And waiting to see what will catch on. What will really push these is when gas hits $5+ a gallon again and I can plug in for $1.50 to go 40 miles.

[Zot]

Originally Posted by OpenD

True, but hydrogen fuel cells are a greenER solution than running a diesel, and they have zero-emissions, except for a small amount of clean water. That's why so many hydrogen fuel cell powered cars are about to hit the market in Southern California, starting this fall. As a proof of concept, this is a transitional step.

Hydrogen isn't actually an energy source, it's an energy carrier. Hydrogen carries the energy that's created when it's produced. Methane reforming (separating hydrogen from hydrocarbons by burning natural gas) is currently the most common method of producing hydrogen fuel. There are solid core fuel cell stacks that can oxidize (burn) natural gas and via a chemical reaction at the electrodes extract hydrogen from natural gas directly (at high temperatures). Either burning to create hydrogen, or burning via rapid oxidation at the electrode, use natural gas which is a fossil fuel to power the fuel cell.

Bloom Energy reports their "green" fuel cells produce 884 pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour of electricity produced. They make a lot of money selling this green solution. The mundane combined-cycle power stations from Siemens, GE or Mitsubishi emits only 730 pounds of CO2 per megawatt-hour.

I don't know what the number of pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour of electricity produced by the fuel cells in this story is. I know it isn't specified or easy to find. I do know similar fuel cells are not as green as newer power stations.

Just putting green on something, or having something be exotic, doesn't make it green. It helps to be careful about support for things like this, as if they don't make sense, the public will over time justifiably become increasingly skeptical. Until we have more data, we don't really know or certain. However it is likely these are natural gas powered devices, and they may or may not be as green as more modern conventional natural gas generator systems. It is likely they are not.

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by Zot

Hydrogen isn't actually an energy source, it's an energy carrier. Hydrogen carries the energy that's created when it's produced.

Yes, I know, although energy is not created, or lost, it just changes form. We simply don't have good, comfortable language for it yet, so we talk about hydrogen as if it were a fuel, since we kind of use it like fuel. In actual fact, using natural renewable energy (wind turbine) to generate electricity to generate hydrogen by hydrolysis to be used to power electric vehicles, was being done all the way back in the 1890s, and the concept is just now finally coming into its own.

Methane reforming (separating hydrogen from hydrocarbons by burning natural gas) is currently the most common method of producing hydrogen fuel.

Yep, but it's a steam process, not a burning process. And steam can be generated by solar concentrators, so even that specific industrial process can be cleaned up. Meanwhile very high temperature solar research projects have demonstrated the ability to "crack" water into oxygen and hydrogen directly, a very interesting prospect for the future.

There are solid core fuel cell stacks that can oxidize (burn) natural gas and via a chemical reaction at the electrodes extract hydrogen from natural gas directly (at high temperatures).

Yep, but in the case of this barge project, and of all the hydrogen-fuel cell powered electrical vehicles (HFCEV) about to hit the market in California and beyond, they run on pure hydrogen, with no natural gas or LNG or CNG or Propane or Syngas coming anywhere near them. Just pure hydrogen.

Either burning to create hydrogen, or burning via rapid oxidation at the electrode, use natural gas which is a fossil fuel to power the fuel cell.

Yes, yes, yes... but again, this is a transitional phase. Technology to produce hydrogen by renewable energy hydrolysis from water - using electricity - or by photolysis - using energy from sunlight to generate hydrogen by a direct photoactive process - are both quite close to becoming marketable equipment. By the time they have a hydrogen generator on sale for installation in your carport, which is powered by solar panels on the roof, you'll already have your choice of viable hydrogen powered vehicles to use with it, and you may not want to be bothered heading over to a hydrogen filling station any more.

For that matter, generating hydrogen for later fuel cell use may become the preferred energy storage system, over batteries. But of course battery technology is evolving rapidly, too, so I think the horse race will be on for a number of years to see which becomes dominant.

I don't know what the number of pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour of electricity produced by the fuel cells in this story is. I know it isn't specified or easy to find. I do know similar fuel cells are not as green as newer power stations.

But ultimately those "newer power stations" are a dead end, because they wholly depend on fossil fuels. Only by meeting our energy needs from natural, renewable sources... whether directly or indirectly... will we become 100% "green," and at that point we can just leave the rest of the fossil fuels in the ground.

Just putting green on something, or having something be exotic, doesn't make it green.

No, but going greenER, on the way to becoming completely green, is a pragmatic, fully defensible strategy. And now that evidence is rapidly accumulating about the broad ecological hazards of natural gas extraction... such as groundwater pollution and high correlation with increased earthquake activity... I feel it behooves us to move ahead with renewables as quickly as possible, even if some of the steps we take may only seem like half-steps.