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Old 08-13-2022, 09:04 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,251 posts, read 5,123,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltcolorado View Post

Looks like you were only incorrect for diurnal variation in pH by a factor of 9 for coral reefs and incorrect by a factor
They need a better editor. the comma is in the wrong spot....I was wrong by a factor of 3.3--- pH is a log scale, so a range of +/- 0.3 is still 30x bigger than the +0.1 trend in ocean pH reported. ..and the trend is still within the margin of variation- ie-- just as likely to be real as not.

...and you're right-- the proof is in the pudding----Are oceans suffering?...It doesn't look like it. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/08/...nd-background/
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Old 08-13-2022, 10:03 AM
 
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Quote:
.I was wrong by a factor of 3.3
At least you are trying to improve..
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Old 08-13-2022, 04:46 PM
 
9,345 posts, read 4,322,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltcolorado View Post
For anyone following this who doesnt mind something a little more complicated than its the government trying to control you.. And, as always, a reference to back up what is said.

This is a link on how the rise and fall of CO2 levels influenced the glacial and interglacial periods in the last 800K years. https://www.carbonbrief.org/explaine...-the-ice-ages/

There is an interesting discussion on how the Milankovitch cycles (long term orbital variations) have caused these periods of cold and warm. We are currently in the Holocene warm period which so far has lasted about 12K years.

There is a graph in this link that shows the temperature vs CO2 level during this time. Temperature certainly does influence CO2 levels by a feedback mechanism.

Around 130K years ago was the previous warm period and the planet temperatures were actually HOTTER than they are now. Like a peak of 3.2C vs the about 1C we have now. Ie, it got considerably hotter 130K years go than now because of the sun power.

But.. take a look at the CO2 level 130K years ago. CO2 level only got up to a little over 280PPM. Take a look at that whole time period. There were warmer times than now but CO2 levels never got much above 280PPM.

But all of a sudden now the laws of physics changed and our temperature increase of 1C caused the CO2 levels to shoot up over 40 percent higher than they have been in the last 800K years. Never in the last 800K years did higher temps cause this high of CO2 but all of a sudden they do now???

And to believe its the temperature causing CO2 to rise like has happened, you have to ignore a very clear correlation of our emissions directly into the atmosphere.
Higher temperatures do not increase CO2. Increase of greenhouse gases creates the greenhouse effect which causes increaed in temperatures. And increased temperatures change wearher patterns which means some placex will get warner and dryer and somevplaces will get cooler and wetter.

The kaw of physics have not changed. But if you only look at things that may disagree with climate change it may appear to do so. How has methane and other gases changed plus there are natural cycles of variation in climate which are factored in by climate scientists.
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Old 08-14-2022, 02:39 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,251 posts, read 5,123,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post

The laws of physics have not changed.....

You got that part right anyway.

Again it's way more complicated than "co2 causes warming." (Cf- "Four legs good. Two legs bad"-- Animal Farm)

For instance-- ch4 is 100x "more powerful" as a GHG than co2, but is only 1/10,000th the concentration in the atm, so it's contribution to energy trapping weather/climate is negligible.....CO2 is 10x stronger as a GHG than h2o, but it's contribution is 1000x lower than h2o, so GH Effect of water is 100x more than co2-- BUT--

-- here's where it really gets complicated-- more h2o means more clouds--More clouds means less incoming radiation to warm the Earth, BUT-- more clouds means less out-going radiation leaves (warming), AND more rain, which cools things off...Net effect?...No one knows...effect varies with location and total effect may be zero...???...Qualitatively, the h20 effect is one of buffering the weather/climate-- negative feedback, so even when [c02] was 8000 ppm in the remote past, Earth's temp never seemed to go above 22degC --compared to 15C now.

Look at deserts-- defined by rainfall, not temps. (They form at ~30deg N & S latitudes, particularly on the leeward sides of mountain ranges. It has to do with Hadley Cell Circulation, not GHGs).... Deserts have few clouds, so they get warmer during the day and cool off more at nite-- but the co2 over a desert is the same as anywhere else.....Co2 IS a GH factor, but other factors are more important...QED
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:16 AM
 
1,105 posts, read 1,250,309 times
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Regarding natural cycles, we have been in a La Nina pattern recently. La Nina years tend to show up on the global temperature anomaly plots as cooler than normal and you can see this in the UAH satellite plot here https://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-...-temperatures/

https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...sked-questions

Quote:
When the trade winds are stronger than normal during La Niña, the winds push more surface water to the western half of the Pacific basin. The pool of warm water grows deeper, storing excess heat at depth, and allowing for colder, deeper water to rise to the surface in the eastern half of the Pacific basin.

This wind-driven disturbance creates a large area along the equator where the ocean surface temperatures are below normal. Over the span of months to seasons, heat from the atmosphere then goes into the ocean, leading to cooler air temperatures over a region broad enough to cool down the global average temperature.
These patterns dont change the worlds global energy balance. During our current La Nina, more energy went into the ocean (better at storing energy) resulting in cooler air temps.

Quote:
All of this amounts to a shuffling of heat from one place (ocean) to another (the atmosphere) without affecting the Earth's overall energy budget—the balance between incoming and outgoing energy across the entire planet.
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Old 08-14-2022, 09:55 AM
 
880 posts, read 564,432 times
Reputation: 1690
Guys! I have the solution...


Let's create a carbon-credit system, where-by corporations can get bailed out by the Government, and then they can use that money to buy carbon credits and still be allowed to pollute in the United States. Meanwhile, we will raise middle-class taxes, and then give all of that money away to foreign governments for them to pretend to save the environment, while allowing it to trickle down from oligarchs, to drug lords, to child traffickers. Then my fellow progressive-minded friends can drive around in our massive SUVs with our Coexist stickers, while drinking Starbucks (with the new plastic lid that uses 10 times more plastic than the straw we used previously) and feeling really good about how we are making a difference!


If only everyone else was as environmentally conscious as we were, we could really make this world better.
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Old 08-14-2022, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Madison, Alabama
12,964 posts, read 9,485,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio60 View Post
I have one question? Why are climate activists (Obama, Kerry, Gates, etc.) buying and have bought beach front properties? Does that mean they don't really believe in climate change? Doesn't make sense to me.
Or maybe a better question - why do they have huge houses that take considerable energy (likely fossil fueled) to heat and cool, fly all over the place in private jets or even needless trips in commercial planes, and do all sorts of other things moreso than a "normal" human, then deride every one for their "carbon footprint"? Not sure of the veracity, but I've heard that Al Gore's huge house uses about 10 times the electricity that an average person does. That's called hypocrisy, and there's no such thing as "carbon credits".

If you're going to preach, do like Mother Theresa did - live the life you preach about. And John Kerry, don't tell me how "important" you are.
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Old 08-14-2022, 01:38 PM
 
880 posts, read 564,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I'm sorry to hear so many people here pretend that climate change is not real. All sorts of signs of climate change exist for those who don't bury their heads in the sand. The average temperature in this world has risen by more than a degree since 1900. Glaciers are melting everywhere. I invite people to look at a picture of Alaska's Mendenhall Glacier in 1920 and than look at one today. The glacier is maybe one sixth of its size today. Glacier National Park in Montana will have no glaciers at all within a few years.

Ahh yes... let's investigate...







Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I live in the West and for years there has been a drought out here that I guess gets little attention in other regions of this country.

When you say, "the west," are you talking about California, Nevada, and Arizona? The places that are fed through the Colorado river?


You're living in a desert. The places you are currently living were absolutely never intended to provide the amount of water that they are currently providing to that region. The Colorado river's flow has been butchered, diverted, and completely altered from its original path prior to human involvement. There are 10s of millions of people living in places that just 50 years ago could never have supported life. THAT'S why there is a water shortage.









Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post

For years, I have observed mild winters that do not compare with those that I experienced as a child or young adult.

It snowed twice in San Antonio when I lived there just a few years ago. There was also a massive blizzard unlike we'd ever seen in 1996, and then again in 2014 in the D.C. Metro Area.







Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Than there are the forest fires that strike every year. The worst ones are in California, but they occur all over the Intermountain West. Of course, there were fires before global warming became an issue, but they are worse now and they destroy more acres. Living in the mountains next to a forest is now extremely dangerous. Its often like living next to a can of gasoline that is just waiting to ignite during summer months.

You can't be serious? First of all, it's THEN, not THAN. Then is continuation, THAN is comparison. Second... the reason why the west is having more forest fires is because there are more trees in the West now than there has ever been in history. There has literally been a 380% increase in tree growth throughout the United States.


SECOND... California has been grossly negligent in proper forest care. Specifically, they are no longer maintaining "fire breaks" or properly clearing forest areas, resulting in five times more wood fuel debris than existed in forests before Europeans arrived.



Furthermore, the Federal government had been maintaining these fire-breaks for many years... at Federal taxpayer expense... on lands that were actually state lands, but the Federal government finally stopped maintaining them (this happened under President Obama). Not only did the state of California not pick up the slack, but they actually stopped maintaining their own land as a result of labor union disputes with the state, and a bunch of other stuff. The fires have all been directly related to horrible land management.








Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Yes, it needs to be dealt with in some fashion and this legislation just passed by Congress will provide incentives to move towards electric cars and to eliminate those awful coal power plants. Even if global warming were not an issue these measures would still be good in the sense that they would result in less air pollution.

Yes... because electric cars eliminate the need for coal plants.

If Progressives weren't so terrified of nuclear power, we could satisfy all our power needs with Gen3/4 power plants which actually consume the waste from Gen1/2 nuclear power plants as fuel.






Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
There's nothing like putting your head in the sand though and pretending its not a problem.

This has been a lot of fun. Re-read this post a few times for all of this to sink in. Open a book, read some research papers... please stop watching Rachael Maddow and comedians on late night talk shows to get your news and information.
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Old 08-14-2022, 04:44 PM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,251 posts, read 5,123,089 times
Reputation: 17742
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltcolorado View Post



These patterns dont change the worlds global energy balance. During our current La Nina, more energy went into the ocean (better at storing energy) resulting in cooler air temps.
Exactly!...Weather has to do with the mixing pattern of the atmosphere at any particular time & location. Warmer in one place usually means cooler in an other to balance it out.

The satellite records measure outgoing radiation (not actually temperature). If you check the UAH site, they consistently show that the troposphere is getting warmer, while the stratosphere is getting cooler -more energy "trapped" in the lower air, but the over all escape of energy at the Top of the Atm (TOA) seems to indicate that for the last 40 yrs (the extent of this record), the atm seems to be warming at 1.3degC/century-- way less than the IPCC 4-6deg estimated by their models. https://www.drroyspencer.com/2022/08...022-0-36-deg-c

The situation boils down to three questions-- Exactly how much warming does rising co2 actually cause, do we need to worry about it, and can we do anything about it?....The answers are -- not as much as some politicians would like us to think, no-- we're better off with a a little more co2 & warming, and no-- in that order.
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Old 08-15-2022, 07:40 AM
 
7,072 posts, read 9,614,322 times
Reputation: 4531
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
To those who think co2 is so important-- turn to pp 23-25. Pay particular attention to the Figure 20- graphing changes in sea and air temps and co2 levels-- co2 changes lag behind temp changes by 3-4 months. Oceans determine changes in co2 levels.
Humans have been exhaling CO2 since they first appeared on planet earth. Only since politicians have found ways to increase taxes for anything CO2 related has CO2 been the bad guy.
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