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Old 05-10-2022, 10:30 AM
 
1,080 posts, read 1,229,254 times
Reputation: 1704

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Without digging up a bunch of references.. what I understand is that global temperatures during the Medieval warm period were about the same as global temperatures in the 1970's. However, local temperatures could have been much different with some places hotter and some cooler. Calling the temps similar is fair IMO.

I live in the SW US and the Medieval warm period is interesting because in this time frame, Indian cultures near Phoenix Az just disappeared (1450) as well as the Mesa Verde Colorado Indians in the late 1200s. There is evidence of severe drought in the Eastern Sierra Nevada mountains about the same time frame.

Somewhat scary for us living in the US SW in the present day. However, the conditions that caused the Medieval warm period are completely different than what is causing the warming today. Quoting the reference in my last post

Quote:
During the Medieval warm period, an increase in solar radiation and decrease in volcanic eruptions created a La Niña-like event that changed the usual patterns
At our present time, the sun power is actually decreasing. Best place to measure this is from a satellite which has now been done for about 40 years, I put the satellite solar power plot below. Our current warming is significantly due to increased greenhouse gas emission. Also different is our alarming current and unprecedented rate of increase in global average temp.

Interesting to think about humidity or lack of it. Water vapor is a very good green house gas but it tends to me more localized and mostly in the Troposphere. But CO2 is more universal distributed and goes much higher.

Green house gas warming tends to be accelerated near the poles (where there is very low humidity) and measurements show more warming when its cool - like at night or during the winter. I dont know how to prove this but it I think you could show there is less warming in very humid places where water vapor already does such a good job trapping energy. The scary thing about green house gas warming is that the temperature difference between latitudes will get smaller and this drives the jet stream.

But higher sun power like during the Medieval warm period would cause even humid places to warm up.

Anyhow.. at least I HOPE those differences mean something LOL and that we are not going to dry up out here in the west..




https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...y-go/89128170/

https://www.crowcanyon.org/education...they_leave.asp

Last edited by waltcolorado; 05-10-2022 at 10:39 AM..
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Old 05-11-2022, 12:22 PM
 
3,935 posts, read 2,122,183 times
Reputation: 9996
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post

Why do people have thermometers on the back porch, marked off with an accuracy of 2 degF (about the same as the "warming" seen over the last century)?...Because biological entities (lke us) can't sense temp changes any more accurately than 5-10deg….
You are absolutely right: not very many people could tell the difference in temperature of 2 degrees..in their environment.

However 2 degrees difference is not insignificant:if they are sick they could feel when they have fever - the temperature “cliff” is very sudden - within 2 degrees and 2 degrees temperature difference could mean a life or death if the fever is very high (as you as a former doctor know very well.)

The nature is similar critically sensitive to temperature change “cliffs”
33 degrees - it is water
31 degrees - is ice

I have a few other examples from the natural world where 2 degrees difference in temperature signifies a drastic change.
Quantity changes the quality

2 degrees temperature difference is not benign.
My understanding of climate change - that it is more than just about average temperature rise, or CO2 content: it is a scope of potentially detrimental changes.

My take - it is too many people.

We are insane to promote “more growth”. As far as I know we don’t have another planet with resources to inhabit yet.

If you are not shocked by “beyond meat” being sold in the meat department in the supermarket - then, I don’t know what else to tell you.
The signs of the time to come. Growing protein in the labs.

Perhaps, recycling the dead for necessary molecules? If we still have enough energy on the planet at that time for the process

Last edited by L00k4ward; 05-11-2022 at 01:19 PM..
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Old 05-12-2022, 02:52 AM
 
Location: Central Washington
1,663 posts, read 868,202 times
Reputation: 2941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parnassia View Post
Like way too many folks, you are confusing local annual weather variation with long term large scale climatic change. They're different.
No, I was questioning the claim that there have been "radical" changes in the climate of the Pacific Northwest in the past 7 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Thanks, I appreciate your response but I don't trust that website. I know you do but that person has a bad track record. I think it's a mistake for that guy to only focus on one month in spring and reference it as an anomoly. I'd be more interested to read his explanation for the above trend of being colder and wetter than average having already been an ongoing trend in the northern North Pacific regions for the past 8 months, because that's how long it's actually been. Eight months, not one month. One wet and cold but reasonably calm month of April alone has been irrelevant by comparison.

When the heat dome and heat waves and drought finally pulled up stakes in mid-August from the Pacific west and moved on to the already drought stricken prairies and parked itself there, the cold and wet came to the coastal west regions and it stayed and stayed and it's still here and has caused untold wide spread devastation and destruction to agriculture, livestock farms, marine life, infrastructures, highways and the evacuations of entire flooded towns like never before. Why didn't he say so? What is he trying to avoid and downplay by not mentioning what hell the past full 8 months has actually been like for the Pacific coastal regions?


.
According to NOAA, over the past 8 months, the Pacific Northwest region of Idaho, Oregon, and Washington are 0.26" wetter than normal.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cag/region...108/pcp/202204

Over the same period, temperatures have averaged 1.2F above normal.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cag/region...08/tavg/202204

If you want to break it down by state, Oregon over the past 8 months is 1.97" drier than normal, and 1.6F warmer than normal.
Washington is 5.64" wetter than normal, and 0.5F warmer than normal.

Still not seeing the "hell" that we apparently have been experiencing the past 8 months. Weather records don't show it either. A chilly, wet spring? Absolutely. We've had them before and will again. But we are a long way from the "hell" you describe.
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Old 05-12-2022, 08:07 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
3,013 posts, read 1,981,085 times
Reputation: 11208
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Good point..After all, Big Oil has us all tied down and are pouring that nasty black liquid down our throats against our wishes.

Why do people have thermometers on the back porch, marked off with an accuracy of 2 degF (about the same as the "warming" seen over the last century)?...Because biological entities (lke us) can't sense temp changes any more accurately than 5-10deg.
Maybe I'm a super-sensor but I can detect a 1 degree difference in outdoor temp, indoor heat or A/C.
Ask my spouse for verification of my ability, even so he changes our thermostat as he wants
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Old 05-19-2022, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Here
198 posts, read 70,049 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:

After 52 years of Earth Day, can you say you live any differently, dress any differently, garden any differently, eat any differently now than you did 52 yrs ago due to "climate change?"

In earth years, that is almost like saying 'can you say you live any differently, dress any differently, garden any differently, eat any differently now than you did .000000000000000000000000052 seconds ago due to "climate change?"
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Old 05-19-2022, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth
84 posts, read 51,816 times
Reputation: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantumly View Post
In earth years, that is almost like saying 'can you say you live any differently, dress any differently, garden any differently, eat any differently now than you did .000000000000000000000000052 seconds ago due to "climate change?"

The only reason that people care so much about "climate change" is because of a Swedish child named Greta Thunberg. She decided that protesting about something was a better use of her time than receiving an education. But check her age. She is still a teenager. Greta doesn't have the life experience to hold an expert view on scientific matters.

About fifteen years ago, I studied botany and oceanography. By the time Greta was legally required to attend school in Sweden (age six), I was already an award-winning physicist with decent foundations in other scientific topics.
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Old 05-19-2022, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Canada
14,693 posts, read 14,837,790 times
Reputation: 34712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dozerbear View Post
No, I was questioning the claim that there have been "radical" changes in the climate of the Pacific Northwest in the past 7 years.




According to NOAA, over the past 8 months, the Pacific Northwest region of Idaho, Oregon, and Washington are 0.26" wetter than normal.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cag/region...108/pcp/202204

Over the same period, temperatures have averaged 1.2F above normal.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cag/region...08/tavg/202204

If you want to break it down by state, Oregon over the past 8 months is 1.97" drier than normal, and 1.6F warmer than normal.
Washington is 5.64" wetter than normal, and 0.5F warmer than normal.

Still not seeing the "hell" that we apparently have been experiencing the past 8 months. Weather records don't show it either. A chilly, wet spring? Absolutely. We've had them before and will again. But we are a long way from the "hell" you describe.
You're right, what you describe above is negligible, it's a drop in the bucket by comparison to the past year on this side of the border. For you, no washed out major highways, no collapsed bridges, no houses and entire communities washed away down river, no farms and buildings underwater with loss of crops or thousands of livestock destroyed, no towns evacuated due to floods or wildfires, no towns erased and turned to ashes in less than 15 minutes, no forests killed, no mud slides, no water restrictions and nothing like over 660 people dead within a single week due to temperatures ranging between 116 and 121 degrees last June and July .... etc,.. etc.

I'm happy to learn that our neighbours on the south side of our border have been spared and not had to experience the same magnitudes of climate related problems that have been occurring on the north side of the border. I hope it stays that negligible for all of you south of us. But I wouldn't count on it and I think it might be a good idea for y'all to do some research about what's been progressively happening in the true north in recent years so that you can know what to expect and be prepared for it ahead of time when it starts creeping south across the border and comin' to getcha.

.
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Old 05-20-2022, 02:13 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,151 posts, read 5,005,776 times
Reputation: 17515
Camon, Zoisite-- you're saying you've never had floods or record heat or record cold up there before?

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/l...corded-4273941
SECOND hottest summer-- 1958 (when [co2] was only 280ppm) was hotter. La Nina makes the east equatorial Pacific rim colder, pushing the heat farther north to you. It has nothing to do with co2 or fossil fuels.

Graph out the equation sin x + sin 3x + sin 2x = y....you'll get a repeating cycle of a pattern showing maxima, minima and intermediate, local maxima and minima points....When the max's or min's of the individual sin factors coincide, you get the "perfect storm" situations giving the absolute max's and min's.

Climate depends on multiple cyclic/pseudocyclic factors. [co2] is one of them-- a very minor one of them-- so small, it can be ignored for practical purposes when it's in the range of 250ppm +.
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Old 05-20-2022, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Canada
14,693 posts, read 14,837,790 times
Reputation: 34712
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post

-- 1958 (when [co2] was only 280ppm) was hotter. ......... It has nothing to do with co2 or fossil fuels......

Climate depends on multiple cyclic/pseudocyclic factors. [co2] is one of them-- a very minor one of them-- so small, it can be ignored for practical purposes when it's in the range of 250ppm +.
Guido, I don't know why you keep on pushing the red herring CO2 in response to my posts about climate when you know that I'm not interested in CO2. I don't ever mention CO2, I never make reference to it and I don't care about how many ppm's it is in the atmosphere at any given time. Except for its influence on the oceans it's not important enough to me for my consideration. But the way you reference it so often even though nobody else has mentioned it, it's apparent that you think that CO2 in any amount in the atmosphere actually IS a very important contributor to climate change. I think it's pretty clear that you believe that CO2 should not be ignored in spite of the fact that you bring it up and talk about it just so you can tell others that they should ignore it. That's contradictory.

.
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Old 05-20-2022, 09:11 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,151 posts, read 5,005,776 times
Reputation: 17515
Then what exactly is your point? You're experiencing weather at the extreme end of its natural range, and it will cycle back on it's own. ...That's not climate change, just natural weather cyclicity.

I bring up co2 because that's what the Warmunists focus on in their quest to change the weather. I don't see them suggesting building brick walls to divert the ocean currents.

I started the thread to point out that the basic tenet of the Warmists is that the climate is changing. There's no evidience of that, only normal variability of weather.
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