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View Poll Results: Are enviornmental protection actions useful?
Useful, saves the earth 21 36.21%
Neutral 9 15.52%
Feel-good virtue signallin 19 32.76%
Creates more problems than it solves 9 15.52%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-03-2022, 12:40 AM
 
Location: Troy, NY
20,620 posts, read 4,409,428 times
Reputation: 9866

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCZ View Post
Training supermarket checkout employees not to waste bags while bagging would reduce plastic bag usage by at least 10-20%.

Why do a can of tomatoes and a bottle of shampoo have to go in separate bags just because one is food and the other isn't?

Why does a carton of eggs have to go in a bag all by itself?
It's because "my supervisor/store manager/corporate says we have to do it this way." Arbitrary and wasteful rules.

Training them to properly bag would be nice, but they wont.

Tomatoes & shampoo? Ah, because one is chemical you don't want on your food.

Eggs? Kinda obvious there, do you like cracked eggs before you're ready to use them?


<--- A previous life grocery store worker, and forever customer that knows how to properly bag groceries.
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Old 09-03-2022, 02:48 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,238 posts, read 5,114,062 times
Reputation: 17732
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Today's New York Times says it all; Why Do Some People in New Jersey Suddenly Have Bags and Bags of Bags? (link)and Germany Announces New L.N.G. Facility, Calling It a Green Move From Russian Energy (link) are both about the futility of "feel good" environmental moves. A quote from the article about bags: "Dr. Miller said the bag situation in New Jersey was emblematic of a lot of environmental policies. “If we don’t pay attention to the unintended impacts of policies such as the plastic waste ban, we run into the potential of playing environmental Whac-a-Mole,” she said. “We solve one environmental problem only to create or exacerbate another problem.”

Add to it the sudden decision of the California legislature, which "voted to extend the life of Diablo Canyon, California’s last nuclear power plant, by five years, a step once unthinkable to many environmentalists (link). As far as the article about Germany goes, I thought the whole point was to eliminate natural gas.

What are we accomplishing by all this harem-skarem activity other than salving our consciences for being affluent?
Good topic. Good point.

The discussion has quickly deteriorated into one about bags & boxes. Let me quickly dispel the concern here-- It's a myth (lie) that plastics bags "last forever" in the dumps. ALL organic material oxidizes sooner or later. (Try storing something in a plastic bag. A year later, it will have holes in it as the plastic has started to oxidize.)

Paper bags are 100% recyclable on a short time scale, but are more expensive than plastic bags.

Re-usable sacks get filthy, fast. Few people take the time to wash them. No cookie for you, but those you are trying to impress will be impressed anyway. Info- deficient thinking.

Boxes instead of bags-- stores receive goods in boxes-- often 24 to a box...so only 1 in every 24 customers could have a box for their order. So much for that idea.

Back to the original theme of the thread-- unintended consequences of "Green Policies"--All solutions require trade-offs among the conflicting factors...automobiles solved the problem of manure in the streets, but now we have soot in the air. Which do you prefer? Which solution does us more good? Risk vs benefits

The really stupid thing about Green Energy Policy is that it's all for naught...We really need more co2 in the air as "air fertilization" for the biosphere, and warmer is better for humans....The average world temps is ~15degC...We evolved where the average temps were 22degC....Nobody retires and moves north.
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Old 09-03-2022, 05:11 AM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,665,261 times
Reputation: 19661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk4042C View Post
Training them to properly bag would be nice, but they wont.

Tomatoes & shampoo? Ah, because one is chemical you don't want on your food.

Eggs? Kinda obvious there, do you like cracked eggs before you're ready to use them?


<--- A previous life grocery store worker, and forever customer that knows how to properly bag groceries.
No one has known how to do it right. My parents always load the belt a certain way to avoid problems and I do it by nature too.

It is amazing to me that I. An can go to the store with 3 washable fabric bags and have two filled while the same set of groceries would be in 8 or more plastic bags. Why?
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Old 09-03-2022, 06:42 AM
 
3,373 posts, read 1,962,433 times
Reputation: 11800
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCZ View Post
None of these proposed solutions take into account our aging population, with various medical problems that preclude them from lifting boxes full of groceries (unless you're proposing to put only 5 small items in each box) or digging holes for composting. Every solution that I've seen in the past 10 years to deal with trash disposal or recycling has made the lives of the elderly and disabled more difficult.

And switching to paper bags isn't a great solution either. It requires cutting our forests, and despite being recyclable, many of those bags never actually get recycled, and recycling itself is wasteful and costly. Ditto for cardboard boxes.

Training supermarket checkout employees not to waste bags while bagging would reduce plastic bag usage by at least 10-20%. Why do a can of tomatoes and a bottle of shampoo have to go in separate bags just because one is food and the other isn't? Why does a carton of eggs have to go in a bag all by itself? It's because "my supervisor/store manager/corporate says we have to do it this way." Arbitrary and wasteful rules.
Excellent point. There's also a concern about the cleanliness of those corrugated boxes which have been in warehouses and sometimes cargo ships and can become homes for all types of critters and their waste. I wouldn't want to bring that into my house.
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Old 09-03-2022, 06:55 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,238 posts, read 5,114,062 times
Reputation: 17732
I got news for you, having worked in warehouses-- NEVER drink out of a can that you haven't washed thoroughly first, if you don't like the taste of rat droppings. (Let's be practical, tho-- people do it all the time and we don't see too many cases of Leptospirosis showing up in the ERs.)

Many of our spices, like pepper, for example, are grown in India. The harvest is dumped in large mountains at the processing plants where it's eventually packaged....That mountain grows to twice its original size after the farmers stop adding to it, by the time it's shoveled into bags & boxes....Those rats are everywhere, and they're not house trained.
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Old 09-03-2022, 07:40 AM
 
3,373 posts, read 1,962,433 times
Reputation: 11800
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
I got news for you, having worked in warehouses-- NEVER drink out of a can that you haven't washed thoroughly first, if you don't like the taste of rat droppings. (Let's be practical, tho-- people do it all the time and we don't see too many cases of Leptospirosis showing up in the ERs.)

Many of our spices, like pepper, for example, are grown in India. The harvest is dumped in large mountains at the processing plants where it's eventually packaged....That mountain grows to twice its original size after the farmers stop adding to it, by the time it's shoveled into bags & boxes....Those rats are everywhere, and they're not house trained.
When I was a kid I remember my mom washing every can top (tuna, tomato sauce, etc) before she opened it. She always said you never knew what kind of filth was on the can before it got to us and when the can opener slices into the top (or the top falls into the can!) you can wind up with some nasty stuff in your food.
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Old 09-03-2022, 08:19 AM
 
Location: New York Area
35,002 posts, read 16,964,237 times
Reputation: 30109
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCZ View Post
None of these proposed solutions take into account our aging population, with various medical problems that preclude them from lifting boxes full of groceries (unless you're proposing to put only 5 small items in each box) or digging holes for composting. Every solution that I've seen in the past 10 years to deal with trash disposal or recycling has made the lives of the elderly and disabled more difficult.

And switching to paper bags isn't a great solution either. It requires cutting our forests, and despite being recyclable, many of those bags never actually get recycled, and recycling itself is wasteful and costly. Ditto for cardboard boxes.

Training supermarket checkout employees not to waste bags while bagging would reduce plastic bag usage by at least 10-20%. Why do a can of tomatoes and a bottle of shampoo have to go in separate bags just because one is food and the other isn't? Why does a carton of eggs have to go in a bag all by itself? It's because "my supervisor/store manager/corporate says we have to do it this way." Arbitrary and wasteful rules.
Why do on-the-take politicians feel they need to micromanage us back to Third World status? It's coming close with these bag laws, and permission of savagery through "bail reform." Why to need to destabilize organized society?
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Old 09-03-2022, 10:36 AM
KCZ
 
4,663 posts, read 3,658,309 times
Reputation: 13285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk4042C View Post
Training them to properly bag would be nice, but they wont.

Tomatoes & shampoo? Ah, because one is chemical you don't want on your food.

Eggs? Kinda obvious there, do you like cracked eggs before you're ready to use them?


<--- A previous life grocery store worker, and forever customer that knows how to properly bag groceries.

I've never had shampoo leak on the way home from the grocery store, and even if shampoo leaked onto the outside of a can or jar 1% of the time, how is that a justification for using 99 extra bags? As someone previously pointed out, there have probably been worse things in contact with that can already. A little shampoo might be a good thing.

There's no reason a loaf of bread or bag of chips or bag of noodles can't go in the same bag as a carton of eggs. Some of us manage to do that without breaking all our eggs.

And thanks to you who felt compelled to tell me that eggs are fragile.
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Old 09-03-2022, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Troy, NY
20,620 posts, read 4,409,428 times
Reputation: 9866
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCZ View Post
I've never had shampoo leak on the way home from the grocery store, and even if shampoo leaked onto the outside of a can or jar 1% of the time, how is that a justification for using 99 extra bags? As someone previously pointed out, there have probably been worse things in contact with that can already. A little shampoo might be a good thing.

There's no reason a loaf of bread or bag of chips or bag of noodles can't go in the same bag as a carton of eggs. Some of us manage to do that without breaking all our eggs.

And thanks to you who felt compelled to tell me that eggs are fragile.

If you're using 99 extra bags to bag up, you don't know how to bag. You need to bag more efficiently.

Nobody said you couldn't bag eggs with chips or noodles. It's the people that just bag random items together that fubar the job. I've seen some crazy bagging jobs as a worker and customer. IE:

bag #1: 2 liter soda, loaf of bread, box of cereal
bag #2: paper towel, box of rice, box of donuts
bag #3: Pineapple juice (can), bag of bagels, bag of candy

Using just 3 bags:

bag #1: 2 liter soda, Pineapple juice (can), paper towel - ( [] [] [] ) items standup nicely
bag #2: box of cereal, box of rice, bag of candy - ( [] [] <> ) items pack nicely
bag #3: bag of bagels, box of donuts, loaf of bread - (breads)
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Old 09-03-2022, 02:22 PM
 
5,455 posts, read 3,381,212 times
Reputation: 12177
When plastic grocery bags came into style (1979 in North America), we thought "Yay!!!" we are saving our forests! We no longer have to cut down as many trees to make paper.!
It's the greatest thing since sliced bread!

I don't think making paper bags again is going to unduly hurt forests like it used to because we have gotten very good at sustainable logging and re-forestation. Plus we no longer use a lot of paper for flyers, newspapers and the like.

There are no supermarkets still using plastic in my province. I either bring my own bags or buy them at the check out. I get way too many cloth shopping bags mostly from ordering groceries online and I am amassing dozens of paper shopping bags the same way. Walmart takes the cloth ones back. I send the "empties" back to the store via delivery guy who comes with my next online order, but otherwise I donate them to the food bank.
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