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the issue isn't going away no matter how much it is waved off.
if by issue you mean say, dead zones are increasing in the oceans (and yes, you can measure that), you are right.
if by issue you mean I should take a physicist organization more seriously than you take say, NASA climate scientists, that doesn't compute. You either understand the scientific process, or you don't.
Irreversible? What a steaming crock. How many times has it reversed in 8 billion years? (answer: many times) Why is it that college-trained, supposedly intelligent scientists do not understand that the climate is and always has been cyclical? Our geological record clearly shows it.
I'm so sick of everything being boiled down to politics and an attempt to part MORONS from their money. Go ahead and pay your stupid carbon tax, which does nothing but line the wallets of your keepers, and shoot your family because you’ve listened to Algore one too many times… as the climate keeps cycling just as it always has and always will until the whole thing ends.
Sad truth - mankind is just a kind of intelligent locust, as a locust locust, it cannot change its locust nature in order to survive. It's just futile to reign in our locust nature, let nature to take its course. Let's just pretend that green house effect is a hoax, and that burning 400 million years worth of fossil fuels in 700 years max will not destabilize climate beyond the point of no return to anything livable. And everything gonna be alright, nothing can stand in the way of our consumption. It amazes me that people who cannot solve dy/dx=x feel qualified to offer their Carlin inspired insights to climate scientists. Why stop on climate science? What about nuclear physics and radio astronomy? Those branches of science may host some hoaxes to debunk.
Sadly intelligence is not the best survival strategy.
Irreversible? What a steaming crock. How many times has it reversed in 8 billion years? (answer: many times) Why is it that college-trained, supposedly intelligent scientists do not understand that the climate is and always has been cyclical? Our geological record clearly shows it.
I'm so sick of everything being boiled down to politics and an attempt to part MORONS from their money. Go ahead and pay your stupid carbon tax, which does nothing but line the wallets of your keepers, and shoot your family because you’ve listened to Algore one too many times… as the climate keeps cycling just as it always has and always will until the whole thing ends.
Well, if only talk radio could explain the faithfuls more about cycles, because it doesn't appear they have a clue. There are no causeless "cycles" in itself. There are no any darn climate cycles cycling just because it's cycling, there are chains of causes and effects. Some causes are periodic in their nature, some are abrupt and catastrophic. Humans are a catastrophic cause Earth has not seen before. Therefore, all the referrals to geological past are just talk radio rhetoric to herd dumb and gullible. We can only guess what climate effects the human catastrophic cause would cause. Will effects be livable for us, for bacterias? How long will it take for effects to catch up with the cause? Those are the questions. Business as usual because a million tonnes asteroid can strike any minute is not an answer.
5 billion old Earth saw its share of irreversible changes throughout its geological history. Where are the organisms whose waste (oxygen) is your life? Yup, they "drowned" in their excrement.
Well, if only talk radio could explain the faithfuls more about cycles, because it doesn't appear they have a clue. There are no causeless "cycles" in itself. There are no any darn climate cycles cycling just because it's cycling, there are chains of causes and effects. Some causes are periodic in their nature, some are abrupt and catastrophic. Humans are a catastrophic cause Earth has not seen before. Therefore, all the referrals to geological past are just talk radio rhetoric to herd dumb and gullible. We can only guess what climate effects the human catastrophic cause would cause. Will effects be livable for us, for bacterias? How long will it take for effects to catch up with the cause? Those are the questions. Business as usual because a million tonnes asteroid can strike any minute is not an answer.
5 billion old Earth saw its share of irreversible changes throughout its geological history. Where are the organisms whose waste (oxygen) is your life? Yup, they "drowned" in their excrement.
Certainly there are causes for climate cycling, and without us evil human life forms around, those reasons would all still be the same as they are now and have been, save one. And the climate would merrily continue to cycle as it always has for whatever reasons it has.
Catastrophe? Waking up on a summer morning in Key West to fifty below zero temperatures would be a catastrophe. Ascending within superheated desert thermals in a sailplane over Antarctica would be a catastrophe. Calling the global mean temperature rise of a fraction of a degree over a hundred years a catastrophe is ludicrous--especially when it's changed a hundredfold that amount in the past many times over. You can't even physically perceive a fraction of a degree. Calling that catastrophic is Henny Penny in the extreme. Of course these days, most folks have a coronary over a chipped fingernail, so it's no surprise.
By the way, I'm all for simple living, very small homes, and generally being good stewards of the planet. I'm probably 'greener' than you are and use less of the world's resources. But I DO NOT buy for one minute that the enslavement and bilking of the masses taking place right now will help the planet or the climate one bit. All it will do is fatten your elite keepers' billfolds and provide a bit of comic relief for them. It's about nothing more than power and money. When it boils right down to it, the very leaders that you believe are taking you to the environmental promised land will not allow anyone in this nation to live a truly 'green lifestyle.' It would provide them no revenue, thus is made to be all but impossible through various regulations, codes, and taxation. What good are revenue generation devices when they ain't generating?
Certainly there are causes for climate cycling, and without us evil human life forms around, those reasons would all still be the same as they are now and have been, save one.
The periodic causes will be about the same but "Save one" cause is getting more powerful every year. Earth has never seen such a cause, we don't have any reference points, yet "the cause" pretends that it's not a cause just a light 7 billions strong sneeze because 100 millions years ago climate was also changing.
Forget about climate change, in about 100 years "the cause" will destroy the remnants of the "unmanaged" biosphere to transform Earth from self-sustaining biosphere into artificially managed environment of corn fields, feedlots and metropolises teeming with the cause. Guess who'll do the managing? I don't even mention resource and energy depletion which would devastate apparent American greenery in a blink of an eye. What boring and deprived world would that be?
Yet, we should not forget about human cause. It's a fast growing cause. Abrupt changes/causes tend to destabilize systems in equilibrium well beyond of point of no return.
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And the climate would merrily continue to cycle as it always has for whatever reasons it has.
It cant continue to cycle as it always has because a new human cause overshadows any other cause under the Sun for time being. It took nature 400 millions of years to accumulate all the fossils we burn, that extremely slow accumulation of fossils had affected climate great deal. Yet, modern humans wishfully hope that burning 400 millions supply of fossils in a blink of a geological history eye will not affect anything. How can one argue with mass delusion like that?
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Calling the global mean temperature rise of a fraction of a degree over a hundred years a catastrophe is ludicrous--especially when it's changed a hundredfold that amount in the past many times over.
It's not only about healthy 0.5 degrees of C temperature rise in the past century. There are plenty of indirect signs of warming: species northward mobility and extinction (of non mobile ones), shrinking polar ice cover (perma ice cover no more soon), melting glaciers and permafrost, rising ocean' acidity and so on. Positive feedback will multiply human contributions to warming hell knows how many times fold. No permanent polar cap ice cover - more sun energy absorbed - more warming; melting permafrost - trapped organic matter decomposing - more greenhouse gases in the air - more warming; warmer oceans - less CO2 solubility - more CO2 in the air - more warming; At some point whatever we do will not matter because of the positive feedback we triggered. The problem is that when global warming will become obvious for the most skeptical, there will no point in doing anything.
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You can't even physically perceive a fraction of a degree. Calling that catastrophic is Henny Penny in the extreme. Of course these days, most folks have a coronary over a chipped fingernail, so it's no surprise.
You cannot perceive weight of a straw that broke camel's back, it doesn't mean that back is unbreakable.
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But I DO NOT buy for one minute that the enslavement and bilking of the masses taking place right now will help the planet or the climate one bit.
What kind of enslavement? What kind of bilking? Working class types vehemently deny slightest possibility of human induced global warming not because they are afraid of enslavement, they are afraid that their chance to get a McMansion and whole enchilada of "I'm a success" consumer attributes. They are afraid that door to consumer paradise is closing leaving them behind.
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All it will do is fatten your elite keepers' billfolds and provide a bit of comic relief for them. It's about nothing more than power and money.
Money worth exactly nothing without livable environment. You are mistaken thinking that elites need your money. They need your labor + resources; they just extract your labor using money. If money will not work, they will extract your labor using some other (less pleasant) means.
It's simple equation: labor + resources = wealth; Guess what? Labor prices are going down, resources' prices are going up; accumulation of wealth accelerates. No wonder working types who didn't catch post war consumer paradise train are in denial, they would trash planet to get their crumble of McProsperity. No spotted owl shall stand in their way.
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When it boils right down to it, the very leaders that you believe are taking you to the environmental promised land will not allow anyone in this nation to live a truly 'green lifestyle.'
No. I don't believe Al Gore. Nobody who claims that we can fix all the environmental problems by acting "green" on personal level (or buying the pollution rights) while doing nothing about the system we live under is trustworthy. That what I wonder - if deniers think that Al Gore is just a whacko commie environmentalist job despite his feather light stance on the issue (solving nothing), is there hope?
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It would provide them no revenue, thus is made to be all but impossible through various regulations, codes, and taxation. What good are revenue generation devices when they ain't generating?
It doesn't really matter green or grey, if there is hierarchical social power structure, it will find the ways to squeeze labor and/or goodies from you. Again you are thinking in terms of money which has no transcendent properties. It's just a convenience tool for highly specialized economies. Chingiz Khan Empire was quite green and essentially moneyless. Tribute was paid in furs, honey, food, slaves.... Obviously, modern elites have much more sophisticated and diverse tastes. Therefore, I find your worries of Al Gore with his elite buddies leading us to eco utopia ludicrous. However, the sheer fact that Al Gore and prince William types are concerned about climate is indicative of something well beyond hoax. Naturally, those guy would try to preserve their wealth, power and status and environment without which those things are meaningless. In a few words - bad news for the proles.
You are mistaken thinking that elites need your money. They need your labor + resources; they just extract your labor using money. If money will not work, they will extract your labor using some other (less pleasant) means.
And that is exactly what the founders of this nation were trying to spare us all. They had something new and different from the systems they had lived within prior to that time. It was called freedom. But your tyrannical and treasonous gang of jackbooted thug pals that are now in power want to return to that 'less pleasant' system of exploitation to which you allude. Of course, we are already practically there after only 234 years. They just want to take that last little sliver of freedom away. But now we're getting off topic--we are going from that which gives you nightmares and keeps you awake at night to that which gives me nightmares and keeps me awake at night.
The very fact that you are on this forum is a bit hypocritical. If you truly cared about your impact on the planet, you wouldn't be typing on a device that is largely constructed of the petroleum base that you decry and constructed by the people that you decry--having gone to work in the cars and on the buses that you decry; you wouldn't be consuming the power (having likely come from coal-fired generators) that your preaching medium relies upon to spread your religion. Rather, you would be out somewhere naked in the woods, foraging for berries. But that's not the case, is it? So let's hear it: how many square feet is your McMansion? How fast is your sports car? What is you thermostat set at? Face it: no matter how weak in the knees it makes you, your very existence necessitates your usage of resources. That grain of salt that somehow found its way onto the bean sprout you had for dinner last night is gone forever. Scary, isn't it?
One difference between our philosophies is clear from your post. I do not believe in slavery. I do not believe that any 'tribute' should be paid to anyone. I believe that no individual is more important than another--nor should any one individual have exclusive power over another. With your idealization of the Chingiz Khan Empire, you obviously feel otherwise. In my eyes, there is little difference between enslavement in the name of religion, money, the environment, or anything else. They are all shades of the same black.
One thing that the collective of self-important, extremist enviro-tyrants fail to understand is that our species is wholly insignificant in the whole grand scheme of the universe. This planet is irrelevant. This solar system is irrelevant. This galaxy is irrelevant. There are an infinite number of them out there and if the earth exploded tomorrow, it would mean exactly nada in the expanse of the cosmos--just another cloud of colorful gas and debris in an endless void. Those who worship themselves and their surroundings have a hard time with that concept.
And that is exactly what the founders of this nation were trying to spare us all. They had something new and different from the systems they had lived within prior to that time. It was called freedom.
You can't be serious, founders of this country were mostly large landowners preoccupied with protecting their freedoms and privilege from the less blessed masses and British crown/capitalists wanting their share of the loot. All American political system is built around protecting propertied classes from the poor. Just open your eyes. Paupers like me would not even have had voting rights at the time. Yet, founders needed the masses to work & to fight thus freedom rhetoric. What first thing did President Washington do? Yup, killed something like 240 of Ohio farmers who took revolutionary era freedom rhetoric too seriously.
Practically speaking, "civilized" Americans had about the same freedoms as those their social peers had in England at the time. Of course, if you were a black, you'd better paddle across ocean to England or run to Canada circa 1776. If you were an Indian, run, don't look back to Spain or France, even Russia would be a better place. I'm really not sure about the freedoms you are alluding to.
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But your tyrannical and treasonous gang of jackbooted thug pals that are now in power want to return to that 'less pleasant' system of exploitation to which you allude.
Yup, that's why "marxist" Obama filled his administration with Wall Street guys so they could destroy money based exploitation schemes on which Wall Street is standing. Amazing plot.
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Of course, we are already practically there after only 234 years. They just want to take that last little sliver of freedom away.
yup it took just 234 years to rape and plunder more or less pristine NA continent. I'm just curious what freedoms Obama and Gore are about to take away from you? Freedom to consume? First, you don't have such a freedom to begin with. You have an opportunity to consume provided sufficient fund$ in your possession. Second, if you consider regulations driving prices up as an encroachment on your imaginary freedom, what about resource depletion and/or outright commodity speculations, astronomical compensation packages and so on doing just the same? Don't be selective, commodity speculators may do things to the prices no regulation can.
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The very fact that you are on this forum is a bit hypocritical. If you truly cared about your impact on the planet, you wouldn't be typing on a device that is largely constructed of the petroleum base that you decry and constructed by the people that you decry--having gone to work in the cars and on the buses that you decry; you wouldn't be consuming the power (having likely come from coal-fired generators) that your preaching medium relies upon to spread your religion.
Sorry, survival instinct is not hypocritical. I cannot live outside of society even if I wanted, it's impossible, it's even illegal. Besides me dropping dead would not change a squat since my share of destruction&loot would be instantly gobbled up by somebody else. It's called "tragedy of the commons", the name is derived from peasant pasturing their herds on the communal lands without any kind of grazing enforcement. In such cases, the most greedy, selfish peasants win by letting their herds to overgraze the pasture. The "conscious" portion of herders lose since their share of "grazing rights sacrifice" is instantly appropriated by those who don't give a dime.
In application to free market environment protection strategies, it means that share of resources freed by "conscious" portion of society is instantly appropriated by the guys who don't care. and all that consumption sacrifice is for naught. I'm not that altruistic.
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Rather, you would be out somewhere naked in the woods, foraging for berries. But that's not the case, is it?
First, that would be trespassing of some kind. Second, incident exposure. Third, theft. It's impossible to run naked from the society one lives in. Lastly, in many way we are more deprived than those ancient berry pickers. More than that, we are too deprived to realize how much we are deprived.
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One difference between our philosophies is clear from your post. I do not believe in slavery. I do not believe that any 'tribute' should be paid to anyone.
Are you typing from a prison or something with that kind of philosophy? If you have money in your pocket - you are in bondage already. The only thing you are not paying tribute for in this world is air in your lungs, but doctors may have second opinion on that.
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I believe that no individual is more important than another--nor should any one individual have exclusive power over another. With your idealization of the Chingiz Khan Empire, you obviously feel otherwise.
I'm perplexed. On one side you think Obama is destroying whatever imaginary freedoms you may have. On the other side you worship founding fathers and capitalists who created the system in which a tiny minority controls livelyhood of majority through jobs, wages, taxes and laws favoring minority.
Where did you get that I idealize Chingiz Khan Empire, I just was pointing on the fact that money are not necessary tool for the elites to extract loot, wealth and power from the populace.
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In my eyes, there is little difference between enslavement in the name of religion, money, the environment, or anything else. They are all shades of the same black.
Sorry, most mentally healthy humans and all living things are enslaved to survival instinct and thus to environment. Besides humans have deeply built in empathy to the life. That empathy is crumbling under onslaught of "civilization" but it's still there. I would not call that empathy as enslavement.
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One thing that the collective of self-important, extremist enviro-tyrants fail to understand is that our species is wholly insignificant in the whole grand scheme of the universe. This planet is irrelevant. This solar system is irrelevant. This galaxy is irrelevant. There are an infinite number of them out there and if the earth exploded tomorrow, it would mean exactly nada in the expanse of the cosmos--just another cloud of colorful gas and debris in an endless void. Those who worship themselves and their surroundings have a hard time with that concept.
Sure, humans have deep narcissistic relationships with their civilizations. Yet, I don't live in Universe, galaxy, I live on this planet, it's very relevant what direction this planet goes. It's very immediate concern having nothing to do with effect of this planet and its locust minded intelligent life forms on the expanse of cosmos.
You can't be serious, founders of this country were mostly large landowners preoccupied with protecting their freedoms and privilege from the less blessed masses and British crown/capitalists wanting their share of the loot. All American political system is built around protecting propertied classes from the poor. Just open your eyes. Paupers like me would not even have had voting rights at the time. Yet, founders needed the masses to work & to fight thus freedom rhetoric. What first thing did President Washington do? Yup, killed something like 240 of Ohio farmers who took revolutionary era freedom rhetoric too seriously.
Practically speaking, "civilized" Americans had about the same freedoms as those their social peers had in England at the time. Of course, if you were a black, you'd better paddle across ocean to England or run to Canada circa 1776. If you were an Indian, run, don't look back to Spain or France, even Russia would be a better place. I'm really not sure about the freedoms you are alluding to.
Yup, that's why "marxist" Obama filled his administration with Wall Street guys so they could destroy money based exploitation schemes on which Wall Street is standing. Amazing plot.
yup it took just 234 years to rape and plunder more or less pristine NA continent. I'm just curious what freedoms Obama and Gore are about to take away from you? Freedom to consume? First, you don't have such a freedom to begin with. You have an opportunity to consume provided sufficient fund$ in your possession. Second, if you consider regulations driving prices up as an encroachment on your imaginary freedom, what about resource depletion and/or outright commodity speculations, astronomical compensation packages and so on doing just the same? Don't be selective, commodity speculators may do things to the prices no regulation can.
Sorry, survival instinct is not hypocritical. I cannot live outside of society even if I wanted, it's impossible, it's even illegal. Besides me dropping dead would not change a squat since my share of destruction&loot would be instantly gobbled up by somebody else. It's called "tragedy of the commons", the name is derived from peasant pasturing their herds on the communal lands without any kind of grazing enforcement. In such cases, the most greedy, selfish peasants win by letting their herds to overgraze the pasture. The "conscious" portion of herders lose since their share of "grazing rights sacrifice" is instantly appropriated by those who don't give a dime.
In application to free market environment protection strategies, it means that share of resources freed by "conscious" portion of society is instantly appropriated by the guys who don't care. and all that consumption sacrifice is for naught. I'm not that altruistic.
First, that would be trespassing of some kind. Second, incident exposure. Third, theft. It's impossible to run naked from the society one lives in. Lastly, in many way we are more deprived than those ancient berry pickers. More than that, we are too deprived to realize how much we are deprived.
Are you typing from a prison or something with that kind of philosophy? If you have money in your pocket - you are in bondage already. The only thing you are not paying tribute for in this world is air in your lungs, but doctors may have second opinion on that.
I'm perplexed. On one side you think Obama is destroying whatever imaginary freedoms you may have. On the other side you worship founding fathers and capitalists who created the system in which a tiny minority controls livelyhood of majority through jobs, wages, taxes and laws favoring minority.
Where did you get that I idealize Chingiz Khan Empire, I just was pointing on the fact that money are not necessary tool for the elites to extract loot, wealth and power from the populace.
Sorry, most mentally healthy humans and all living things are enslaved to survival instinct and thus to environment. Besides humans have deeply built in empathy to the life. That empathy is crumbling under onslaught of "civilization" but it's still there. I would not call that empathy as enslavement.
Sure, humans have deep narcissistic relationships with their civilizations. Yet, I don't live in Universe, galaxy, I live on this planet, it's very relevant what direction this planet goes. It's very immediate concern having nothing to do with effect of this planet and its locust minded intelligent life forms on the expanse of cosmos.
There is really no point of discussing this. We speak two different languages. And I really can't blame you for your perspective--it was largely my generation that brainwashed you and turned you into a helpless victim whose existence has been made into a perceived living hell by anyone and everyone except yourself.
I can guarantee you that you make a whole lot more money than I do and that your net worth is at least ten times mine--so there is no point of going on about a 'rich capitalist' mentality on my part. You're arguing a minimalist point with a minimalist, which will get you nowhere. The big difference between us is that I don't complain how life has kicked me in the nuts and how all those evil, rich capitalists are so much better off than I am and how they are keeping me down in the gutter and laughing at me. I don't really care what they do. I care what I do. I live my life as I see fit and let others do the same. The ONE thing that I WILL fight, however, is folks with your mentality trying to run my life for me in the name of God, the environment, or anything else. Freedom comes first. This country was founded on not having an official religion of the state because they knew how nutty people can get over religion--that includes your enviro-religion.
I really wish I could ease your anguish. If I could, I would make several little worlds: one for overcompetitive jerks who find solace in lots of money, McMansions, fancy sports cars and trophy mates; one for folks like you who lose sleep over the grain of sand they unjustly displaced the day before; one for those who want their asses wiped under a socialist system, gladly giving up any free agency in the process so they can sit around and watch swill like South Park and Family Guy all day; one for religious extremists who want everyone to see everything their way and will kill to make that happen; one for victims who continually blame others for their anguish; one for folks who like to have the time of day they defecate regulated; and one for me and anyone like me who cherishes his/her own freedom and the freedom of those around him/her--those whose motto is 'live and let live.' A place where you can do anything you like as long as you keep it to yourself, mind your own business, and it doesn't infringe on the freedoms of others. A place where the motto is Leave Me The Hell Alone.
You ask what freedoms Big O, Nancy Lolapalooooza, and the walking corpse Reid are going to take from me? Let's start with forcing me to do business with a private corporation which sells wares that I neither want nor believe in, and packaging it under the touchy-feely name of 'health care.' Stick your health care. It's not health care, it's health slavery. Criminalizing those who do not practice conventional health care. That's this month's loss of freedom. I can't wait to see how they screw me next month; I've already purchased another super-sized jar of Vaseline.
There is really no point of discussing this. We speak two different languages. And I really can't blame you for your perspective--it was largely my generation that brainwashed you and turned you into a helpless victim whose existence has been made into a perceived living hell by anyone and everyone except yourself.
I think your imagination goes wild here, slow down.
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The big difference between us is that I don't complain how life has kicked me in the nuts and how all those evil, rich capitalists are so much better off than I am and how they are keeping me down in the gutter and laughing at me.
Wow, in some people's minds simple mentioning the word "capitalist" triggers all kind of conditioned reflexes they've been taught. Good conditioning, Chris, little bit on the generic side, that's what they stuff in your average prole' mind in the land of the free. That's why land of the free is free (more or less) from the direct repressions. Why bother with KGB if prole's mind can be easily programmed to deny the obvious and chant freedom, freeedom, freeedom, USA, USA, USA ... each time they are being bent over and had without lubrication?
Sure, there are many rich capitalists who are much better off than me. I think you state obvious fact and then use this obviousity to come to the typical conditioned conclusions you've been taught. Like personal envy, failure and so on. Because it's plainly clear that the system is perfect and only losers and other moral wrecks have a grudge against it. Of course, as soon as you embrace this "truth", the annoying facts like a handful Wall Street and corporate guys holding livelihoods of tens of millions in their hands will stop bothering you. So you don't like slavery you say? Doesn't sound like it, you have typical slave mentality.
I think I never mentioned capitalists in the context of my personal well being. I have much bigger grudge. Aside inequality and exploitation (freedom loving folks like you learned to ignore or to extol) capitalism cannot exist without perpetual growth and turning natural world into commodity. Green capitalism is an oxymoron. It's either capitalism as we know it or life, simple as that. BTW, socialism is just state capitalism and therefore it is not an answer in the long run.
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ventional health care. That's this month's loss of freedom. I can't wait to see how they screw me next month; I've already purchased another super-sized jar of Vaseline.
First, people who take office of President this seriously amuse me. You listen talk radio way too much. It doesn't matter who's in office, America is ruled by oligarchy not by presidents. NO President can be elected without blessing and support of the people who count. Somebody who says Obama is Marxist, sorry, that guy needs a checkup. Of course, oligarchy is not uniform, there are different factions and business interests. Large chunk of oligarchy is sick of insatiable appetites of medical&insurance industry, yet socializing medicine to cut costs would give wrong ideas to the proles, because only oligarchy shall have power over life&death of the proles. What in the hell to do? Business as usual costs pretty penny, further cutting down health coverage (widespread practice) certainly about to expose USA for the banana republic what it is, and that what America is in business of - selling its image. What to do, what to do... dilemmas. Here we go Mr. Change Obama, will satiate insatiable insurance industry appetites using money pulled by Fed from its arse. Here we go, everybody is happy, but that's not socializing of healthcare. Using fed money to feed private industries is as old as USA, "socialize expenses, privatize gains" is a national American slogan. However, what is socialist about it?
What freedom of healthcare in the hell you are talking about? You do NOT have any stinky freedom, you have an opportunity to purchase healthcare if you have $ or good insurance. That's not freedom. As I said the only unconditioned freedom you have - freedom to breath. Obviously, you have a more money than you say (or a good insurance) to insist that Obama is taking your freedoms somewhere. Btw, insurance is socialist in its nature. I really think you've lost yourself in your imaginary freedom world, you have quite a concoction of self-contradicting views. Wake up.
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