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No need trying to explain as the premise is bogus. Here's a simple analogy to understand. We're selling shoes but they are made overseas. We have a few customers that want a product made in the U.S.
Instead of making some shoes in the U.S. we're going to put some laces made in the U.S. on them which will make up 1% of the shoe. When we go to sell them instead of claiming the laces are made in the U.S. on all the shoes we're going to say 1 pair of shoes in a hundred is made in the U.S. and charge extra for those pair of shoes so the person buying them can feel comfortable that they purchased a U.S. product.
Since the extra cost of the shoe cannot reasonably be made up by the person who wants them we're also going to tack on some extra expense for the other shoes but still leave them 100% made overseas.
Fool yourself if you wish but I'm sorry to tell you but what you have is pair of shoes made overseas.
The link shows cap-and-trade may not even make it out of committee.
All you greenies.................well, you will probably lose.
I hear it will be passed, but if it's not passed the EPA will implement Cap & Trade on their own. They have a Supreme Court ruling in hand that requires them to consider CO2 under the Clean Air Act. Lose lose for the CO2 deniers.
Us simple minded folks out here in the hinterlands, as servants to the enlightened intellectuals of such fabulous communities as Washington D.C. ... are able to understand the concept that nobody can deliver to an end user a commodity if it isn't actually produced to begin with.
It doesn't matter if it's a basic food, a manufactured good, or electrical energy. So, just because you've got wires going into your power panel to deliver electricity into your home doesn't mean that there's power there any more than having checks in your checkbook means you've got money on deposit to cover the checks you write.
In my very simple minded questioning of how PJM obtains electricity that it puts into the grid for T&D to it's customers, I went directly to their website pjm.com. It's a nicely written and informative site, which I would like to believe that even the most intelligent posters on this forum can understand if they'd take the time to read it.
What you'll find posted there is a chart showing all of PJM's renewable energy sources, which include solar, wind, hydro, pumped storage water, methane, wood waste, solid waste, and other gases. Revealed there is the total cumulative amount of MWH's from 2002-2008 that PJM has obtained. Of passing interest to this thread is that total solar and wind and hydro are dwarfed by the power generation derived from Wood Waste alone, and then there's another giant, solid waste.
Last time I checked, Wood waste, solid waste, methane, and other captured gases require the act of combustion to generate heat to create steam to drive turbines to generate electricity. This process produces the dreaded greenhouse gases but also the benefit of electricity to power homes in 13 states and D.C..
Of further interest on their site, one may glean that PJM forecasts a daily summertime max load of 134.4 MWH this year while their system wide capacity for generation can produce 162 MWH. But the total in their system generated by "renewable energy" sources ... per their disclosure ... is but a fraction of that amount, and more specifically ... the amount generated by "green" sources is but a minute fraction of that total.
So much for only purchasing "green" energy from PJM. You can get this information from the horses' mouth instead of the other end at D.C. where all they see is the lights come on when they flip the switch.
Another meaningless factoid is that 42% of new generation capacity added last year was wind generation. Small but growing very fast.
Ahh must make sense though since you don't dispute it. Having said that you are correct, instead of shoelaces I should have used shoe polish. Without the shoes the polish is useless. Matter of fact that is great analogy as the polish isn't needed at all except to make them look "purty".
I hear it will be passed, but if it's not passed the EPA will implement Cap & Trade on their own. They have a Supreme Court ruling in hand that requires them to consider CO2 under the Clean Air Act. Lose lose for the CO2 deniers.
Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks . All the EPA can do is fine industries. They can't legislate on their own.
Now you sound desperate. All the EPA can do is fine industries. They can't legislate on their own.
Nice try.
Wrong! The Clean Air act authorizes Cap and Trade, which has been used successfully for NOx and SOx. Same legislation same authority. Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks
Ahh must make sense though since you don't dispute it. Having said that you are correct, instead of shoelaces I should have used shoe polish. Without the shoes the polish is useless. Matter of fact that is great analogy as the polish isn't needed at all except to make them look "purty".
What's there to dispute? It's a simplistic analogy that isn't applicable.
The facts are that PJM tracks and bills for the flow of energy on their lines. They require every load serving entity to schedule resources to meet their load, including the allocation of renewable resources. When more people at a delivery point buy renewable energy, more is scheduled and more is delivered. As more people sign up for renewable energy, more developers build plants and thus changes the mix of coal in PJM. It really very simple.
Another meaningless factoid is that 42% of new generation capacity added last year was wind generation. Small but growing very fast.
According to PJM, their wind energy production has been increased by 703% during the time frame of 2005-2008. It's all the way up to almost 3.7 MWH in all of 2008.
By PJM's own numbers, "wind energy" amounts to less than 4% of their total projected delivered power for 2009.
According to PJM, their wind energy production has been increased by 703% during the time frame of 2005-2008. It's all the way up to almost 3.7 MWH in all of 2008.
By PJM's own numbers, "wind energy" amounts to less than 4% of their total projected delivered power for 2009.
Off by a factor a 1,000,000. Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks
Last edited by vec101; 05-14-2009 at 02:40 PM..
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