Dem Congressman: ‘Nobody in This Country Realizes That Cap-and-Trade is a Tax’ (installing, costs)
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I've been a registered professional electrical engineer for thirty years. Yeah it's humorous that you would think that you can "teach me" something about the power industry.
Oh boy, if we're going to trot out our credentials to speak to the unwashed masses ... there's a piece of paper says I graduated 40 years ago with a EE degree. But I didn't go into power engineering ... I went into consumer electronics (which was a very sordid episode in my working career, best left behind as rapidly as I could). Absent your specialization in the power industry, your "registered professional EE for 30 years" is no more valid in establishing your ability to discern what's working and what's subsidized electrical energy production than my credentials. Frankly, I don't expect that I could "teach" you anything at anytime or anyplace ... you obviously know for fact stuff that the rest of us do not.
Actually Wyoming ranks 7th in wind potential in the United States and at well under 1000 MW actually installed isn't really much of a player.
Ah, that explains why the largest plant in the USA to manufacture these devices is being built on our doorstep in Colorado instead of Wyoming. But actually, when you look at the USGov wind charts, the largest concentration of wind energy is over the land mass of WY-MT-Dakota's-NE region. What's critical here is the low population density and the local social and political willingness to allow wind farms to be built here ... as opposed to the excellent wind energy areas with NIMBY locals with high population density (and hence, local power consumption instead of long distance transmission), such as off the coasts of New England (reference: Ted Kennedy), or the coasts of NCalifornia and Oregon (reference: Pelosi). Yessir, they all want to be part of "clean green energy", but not where it's going to affect them, no matter how minimally. Let others sacrifice for us! we're too important to be bothered with the realities of doing this stuff.
snip
I agree small producers can't make a metane digester work economically. I know several areas where farming is at a scale to make methane digesters work.
And where might those successful installations be? As I mentioned ... we've seen all kinds of proposals around here that the cities were investigating for these plants, given that they have the collection system in place and the sources of raw feedstocks. Every one of the the proposals turned out to be a scam ... including the "pilot" plants which the promoters brought into the proposal discussions.
8000 MW of wind generation with full commercial guarantees were installed in the United States last year. That's a little beyond "pilot" and blows way past the "feel-good BS" allusions.
As I mentioned, we have a number of major players already here installing wind power "farms". I looked into the costs of putting in my own, and what the payback would be. The cost per KWH was breathtaking, and the local T&D company would buy my surplus production at their cost of electricity, currently 2 cents per KWH. My costs per KWH were far far far in excess of that ... and that didn't include the maintenance and repairs that would inevitably add to my expenses. Our projected "payback" period was in excess of 25 years ... that's a figure that my accountant said "no" to, as well as the tri-state generation company when they calculated if it was worth me doing this.
Also of interest is to read Chesapeak's Green Energy website. There's everything from local subisdy's of up to 1/2 cent per KWH (up to 20,000KWH) to other subsidy's to achieve their local residential power rate of 11.1 cents per KWH. Absent those subsidy's, the power rates would be higher than the other energy providers in the area ... and they disclose that the wind energy comes into the grid from out of their area and is "mixed" with conventional energy. In short, the "green energy" purchased in D.C. is an accounting gimmick of the total energy delivered into their area when you opt for the contract of 100% wind energy. The base load is still powered by conventional energy generation.
Oh boy, if we're going to trot out our credentials to speak to the unwashed masses ... there's a piece of paper says I graduated 40 years ago with a EE degree. But I didn't go into power engineering ... I went into consumer electronics (which was a very sordid episode in my working career, best left behind as rapidly as I could). Absent your specialization in the power industry, your "registered professional EE for 30 years" is no more valid in establishing your ability to discern what's working and what's subsidized electrical energy production than my credentials. Frankly, I don't expect that I could "teach" you anything at anytime or anyplace ... you obviously know for fact stuff that the rest of us do not.
Actually I rely on my MBA in fiance to understand the financial aspect of energy production.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [LEFT
sunsprit[/LEFT];8629059]Ah, that explains why the largest plant in the USA to manufacture these devices is being built on our doorstep in Colorado instead of Wyoming. But actually, when you look at the [LEFT]USGov[/LEFT] wind charts, the largest concentration of wind energy is over the land mass of WY-MT-Dakota's-NE region. What's critical here is the low population density and the local social and political willingness to allow wind farms to be built here ... as opposed to the excellent wind energy areas with NIMBY locals with high population density (and hence, local power consumption instead of long distance transmission), such as off the coasts of New England (reference: Ted Kennedy), or the coasts of [LEFT]NCalifornia[/LEFT] and Oregon (reference: [LEFT]Pelosi[/LEFT]). [LEFT]Yessir[/LEFT], they all want to be part of "clean green energy", but not where it's going to affect them, no matter how minimally. Let others sacrifice for us! we're too important to be bothered with the realities of doing this stuff.
Notice it is being built in Colorado, not Wyoming. Another to be announced in a day or so down in Kansas, several already operating in Iowa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [LEFT
sunsprit[/LEFT];8629059]
And where might those successful installations be? As I mentioned ... we've seen all kinds of proposals around here that the cities were investigating for these plants, given that they have the collection system in place and the sources of raw [LEFT]feedstocks[/LEFT]. Every one of the the proposals turned out to be a scam ... including the "pilot" plants which the promoters brought into the proposal discussions.
Check with Iowa State University. They have been working on [LEFT]digesters[/LEFT]. It's all proven technology coming over from Europe, so it should be easy to separate the con artists from the real vendors.
[quote=sunsprit;8629059]As I mentioned, we have a number of major players already here installing wind power "farms". I looked into the costs of putting in my own, and what the payback would be. The cost per KWH was breathtaking, and the local T&D company would buy my surplus production at their cost of electricity, currently 2 cents per KWH. My costs per KWH were far far far in excess of that ... and that didn't include the maintenance and repairs that would inevitably add to my expenses. Our projected "payback" period was in excess of 25 years ... that's a figure that my accountant said "no" to, as well as the [LEFT]tri[/LEFT]-state generation company when they calculated if it was worth me doing this.[/quote]I'm actually talking about utility scale plants not off grid home units. 2 ¢/kWh should be pretty close to their fuel cost not their full cost of electricity. It's what utilities do when they don't want to buy your electricity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
Also of interest is to read [LEFT]Chesapeak's[/LEFT] Green Energy website. There's everything from local [LEFT]subisdy's[/LEFT] of up to 1/2 cent per KWH (up to 20,000KWH) to other subsidy's to achieve their local residential power rate of 11.1 cents per KWH. Absent those subsidy's, the power rates would be higher than the other energy providers in the area ... and they disclose that the wind energy comes into the grid from out of their area and is "mixed" with conventional energy. In short, the "green energy" purchased in D.C. is an accounting gimmick of the total energy delivered into their area when you opt for the contract of 100% wind energy. The base load is still powered by conventional energy generation.
Not an accounting gimmick at all, but I don't buy my green energy from Chesapeake anyway. Mine comes from wind farms in WV and PA that are part of the PJM power pool.
Not an accounting gimmick at all, but I don't buy my green energy from Chesapeake anyway. Mine comes from wind farms in WV and PA that are part of the PJM power pool.
OK, I am NOT starting an argument but am curious.....
if you get all your electric from windmills - how do you have electric when the wind is not blowing (thus the windmills are not generating electric)?
If you feel I am attacking you, I will delete - not meaning to.
But have to tell everyone who is for Cap and Trade and are all for getting their energy from windmills in WV, as a citizen of WV, I really resent that.
Also have to say, as have posted in another thread - the windmills in WV are performing dismally.
OK, I am NOT starting an argument but am curious.....
if you get all your electric from windmills - how do you have electric when the wind is not blowing (thus the windmills are not generating electric)?
If you feel I am attacking you, I will delete - not meaning to.
But have to tell everyone who is for Cap and Trade and are all for getting their energy from windmills in WV, as a citizen of WV, I really resent that.
Also have to say, as have posted in another thread - the windmills in WV are performing dismally.
The grid as a whole keep the lights on. The green energy vendor is responsible for supplying the total amount of energy I consume. There will be times when that vendor "borrows" from the grind and then pays the energy back later. The best analogy for lay people is three people with straws drinking from a big glass. The liquid in the glass is the electricity. I put in as much as I drink, but the energy is all mixed up in the glass. I have however turned the entire glass 1/3 green by my action.
Why do you resent windmills in WV, but are happy with the coal industry destroying the land and health of the population of the state? BTW if many people in WV, including your governor, were not in favor of wind in the state, you wouldn't see much.
Environmental groups have stopped some of the proposed windmill farms in WV.
My concern is the large number of coal miners already affected just by talks of Cap and Trade. Companies are already holding back - people don't want to make investments until they see where the shoe drops.
Environmental groups have stopped some of the proposed windmill farms in WV.
My concern is the large number of coal miners already affected just by talks of Cap and Trade. Companies are already holding back - people don't want to make investments until they see where the shoe drops.
The shoe is going to drop and over the next 30 years or so we are going to phase down coal use in the country. Perhaps by that time a technology to capture and store CO2 will evolve. West Virginia will never get healthy economically by hanging on to coal. The state should invest in generating green jobs and move to the 21sth century, not try to hang on to the 19th century.
BTW I didn't consider your earlier question an attack, but then I think the TOS actually allow attacks of ideas. Saying an argument is stupid is not the same as saying the person presenting the argument is stupid. The first is allowed by TOS the second is proscribed.
The supply of coal is projected to be exhausted in what - I've read anywhere from 100-250 years.
There is NO doubt that the US has to find alternative means of energy (no, I'm not saying we have to wait til then to do it).
Our state govt has been working over the last several years to develop different types of industries in the state.
Coal mining is a big industry in WV but Wy is by far the largest producer. I don't know what the situation is in Wy but in WV many mines have shut down or idled production in the last 3 months.
Much of it is due to the economy (reduction in steel demand, etc.) but the current political atmosphere is also a huge factor.
I haven't done the research on how many mines have shut down in the last 3 months or how many people have been laid off. A friend of mine who is a mine inspector told me 6 of his mines shut down last month.
You don't understand, our state is under attack (that may sound dramatic but it is not -- it's reality). It's not a matter of the shoe dropping and things evolving over 30 years - it is happening NOW in a variety of ways including actions by the EPA.
It would be one thing if it were our citizens leading the charge against the coal industry in WV, but it is not. It is outsiders. How is it fair that they are complaining about mountaintop removal, etc. when, while we look forward to improvements, we are in support of our miners. For instance, usuable land is a premium in WV - surface mining provides usable land in places where there is little to none.
Quote:
.... efforts are underway by a number of environmental groups, mostly made up of out-of-state lobbying groups to end the production of coal all together - both deep and surface mining. West Virginia Coal Association - Senator Calls for Public Support on Coal Issue (http://www.wvcoal.com/news/wvcoal-news/797-senator-calls-for-public-support-on-coal-issue.html - broken link)
Also, while the Feds are curtailing the production of coal in WV, guess what state is seeing an increase?
Illinois. The home state of Obama.
Hmmm, do I smell a rat?
Quote:
The senator believes it is very likely that while West Virginia would have to cease coal production, energy producers would still have to buy coal from some other place, such as Illinois which is enjoying a resurgence of pit and long wall mining activities. “I might add that Illinois is the home state of president of the United States.” West Virginia Coal Association - Senator Calls for Public Support on Coal Issue (http://www.wvcoal.com/news/wvcoal-news/797-senator-calls-for-public-support-on-coal-issue.html - broken link)
The supply of coal is projected to be exhausted in what - I've read anywhere from 100-250 years.
There is NO doubt that the US has to find alternative means of energy (no, I'm not saying we have to wait til then to do it).
Our state govt has been working over the last several years to develop different types of industries in the state.
Coal mining is a big industry in WV but Wy is by far the largest producer. I don't know what the situation is in Wy but in WV many mines have shut down or idled production in the last 3 months.
Much of it is due to the economy (reduction in steel demand, etc.) but the current political atmosphere is also a huge factor.
I haven't done the research on how many mines have shut down in the last 3 months or how many people have been laid off. A friend of mine who is a mine inspector told me 6 of his mines shut down last month.
You don't understand, our state is under attack (that may sound dramatic but it is not -- it's reality). It's not a matter of the shoe dropping and things evolving over 30 years - it is happening NOW in a variety of ways including actions by the EPA.
It would be one thing if it were our citizens leading the charge against the coal industry in WV, but it is not. It is outsiders. How is it fair that they are complaining about mountaintop removal, etc. when, while we look forward to improvements, we are in support of our miners. For instance, usuable land is a premium in WV - surface mining provides usable land in places where there is little to none.
The tobacco states felt the same way. Ask for more stimulus money to make the transition.
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