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No, I would not sell to anybody I did not know personally. Even a friend or relative, I would make out a bill of sale with their drivers license photo copied onto the BOS and both of our signatures under the serial number, descriptions, etc of the gun.
I recently purchased a rifle and although the person was just going to hand over the gun, I printed up a bill of sale and had them sign it and I signed it and made a copy and gave to the seller. I wanted proof of what date I purchased so if something happened in the past and they traced to the seller, they couldn't fudge and say, I sold it last month.
We make a big deal out of our second amendment rights, but here's a personal test of your gun control beliefs in action. If you needed the cash and someone you knew was up to no good came to you with cash in hand, would you sell a gun to them?
I couldn't do it. I'd rather sell to a FFL holder and take a hit on the price so I could have a clear conscious. What about you?
The second Amendment is an enumeration of our natural rights and is a stated restriction of GOVERNMENT.
The fact I won't sell a gun, car, or stick of gum to anyone I don't want to has NOTHING to do with the second amendment.
No, I would not sell to anybody I did not know personally. Even a friend or relative, I would make out a bill of sale with their drivers license photo copied onto the BOS and both of our signatures under the serial number, descriptions, etc of the gun.
Um....you DO realize that the BOS is both unnecessary AND about as useful as a box of .22 shells to a skeet shooter, right? Please - tell me of an instance where it's been necessary in an actual legal proceeding. Because if it is, you'd BEST be doing it for anything you sell. It's not - and I'm not going to do something that puts more of my personal information out there for someone else to access that has no legal authority/need to do so.
It comes up around here from time to time, with folks saying "Must be willing to sign a BOS". Well, skooter, you ain't gonna be selling it to ME. The law requires that you NOT sell to a minor, felon or non-resident. Having a copy of the ID will prove none of the above - or haven't you heard of fake ID's? If you think that having a copy of a fake ID will somehow protect you, go ask a liquor store clerk what happens when they honor a fake ID.
As long as you exercise due diligence (wanna SEE my ID - sure, no problem. And no, I'm not a felon and can legally own a firearm in this state) - you're fully in compliance with MOST state laws (I ain't gonna even attempt to understand those states that want more to be done in order to excercise a CONSTITUTIONAL right). But every time someone like you (metaphorically speaking) is willing to infringe upon OUR rights, SOMEONE within the government will see an opportunity to make it a REQUIREMENT to do so. Leave my rights alone, please.
Um....you DO realize that the BOS is both unnecessary AND about as useful as a box of .22 shells to a skeet shooter, right? Please - tell me of an instance where it's been necessary in an actual legal proceeding. Because if it is, you'd BEST be doing it for anything you sell. It's not - and I'm not going to do something that puts more of my personal information out there for someone else to access that has no legal authority/need to do so.
It comes up around here from time to time, with folks saying "Must be willing to sign a BOS". Well, skooter, you ain't gonna be selling it to ME. The law requires that you NOT sell to a minor, felon or non-resident. Having a copy of the ID will prove none of the above - or haven't you heard of fake ID's? If you think that having a copy of a fake ID will somehow protect you, go ask a liquor store clerk what happens when they honor a fake ID.
As long as you exercise due diligence (wanna SEE my ID - sure, no problem. And no, I'm not a felon and can legally own a firearm in this state) - you're fully in compliance with MOST state laws (I ain't gonna even attempt to understand those states that want more to be done in order to excercise a CONSTITUTIONAL right). But every time someone like you (metaphorically speaking) is willing to infringe upon OUR rights, SOMEONE within the government will see an opportunity to make it a REQUIREMENT to do so. Leave my rights alone, please.
I'm not a gun dealer and I'm not bound by the same laws that they are. I'm a private citizen. If you want to purchase my gun, you will do what I ask, or you can hike on down the road and find a deal elsewhere. Same with selling a gun to me, I can find a gun elsewhere.
I cover my butt. As to the BOS not being worth a crap? Sure is. It's legally binding in my state. Probably isn't where you live.
Haven't touched your rights, it woud be you infringing on my rights to have proof that I transfered that firearm to another person, should it be used in a crime later. When they trace it, I want something showing that I no longer own it, and like I say, where I live, we, and the courts, still honor a bill of sale.
Sorry, but I've had a gun that I sold used in a crime. PD came, talked w/me, I told them when I sold it and that I didn't recall the guys' name (it'd been a number of years before), but told them what I did recall as to description, etc. That was it.
Now....let's say you have all those records and someone breaks in, then uses YOUR list as a database of where to go to steal other guns. The guy gets caught, has your list.....and I'm one of his victims. You can guarantee that you're going to be hearing from my attorney for having failed to keep the data away from a thief, no matter HOW securely you may have thought you had it stored. Since you're not someone required to have kept such records, that's going to be one of the very things I'd use against you.
And you're perfectly right - it's your choice to demand and keep such records. It's MY right to tell ya to take a long walk off a short pier! What I'm pointing out is that there is no such legal requirement, and rather than being of benefit to you, it COULD be to your detriment. Think I'm wrong? Go ask a cop that KNOWS firearms law - or better yet, a good attorney. I've done both (and I'm ex-LEO), and the above comments (plus many others) were exactly what was presented to me. Since the attorney I asked is one that I've dealt with for decades, I trust him - especially since he took the time to research it first.
Thing is, a BOS isn't going to be any true "proof" of anything unless it's witnessed - and even then, they are often successfully challenged in court. So while I understand what you're doing, I sincerely doubt that it'd do much more for you than what the results would be without it. But, hey - it's YOUR choice.
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango
We make a big deal out of our second amendment rights, but here's a personal test of your gun control beliefs in action. If you needed the cash and someone you knew was up to no good came to you with cash in hand, would you sell a gun to them?
I couldn't do it. I'd rather sell to a FFL holder and take a hit on the price so I could have a clear conscious. What about you?
I'm supposing you always trade in your vehicles instead of selling to a private party too.
I trust my gut on selling firearms. If I feel comfortable about them they can buy. Having said that I buy MUCH more than sell.
You can always ask for a bill of sale and a DL too.
Sorry, but I've had a gun that I sold used in a crime. PD came, talked w/me, I told them when I sold it and that I didn't recall the guys' name (it'd been a number of years before), but told them what I did recall as to description, etc. That was it.
Now....let's say you have all those records and someone breaks in, then uses YOUR list as a database of where to go to steal other guns. The guy gets caught, has your list.....and I'm one of his victims. You can guarantee that you're going to be hearing from my attorney for having failed to keep the data away from a thief, no matter HOW securely you may have thought you had it stored. Since you're not someone required to have kept such records, that's going to be one of the very things I'd use against you.
And you're perfectly right - it's your choice to demand and keep such records. It's MY right to tell ya to take a long walk off a short pier! What I'm pointing out is that there is no such legal requirement, and rather than being of benefit to you, it COULD be to your detriment. Think I'm wrong? Go ask a cop that KNOWS firearms law - or better yet, a good attorney. I've done both (and I'm ex-LEO), and the above comments (plus many others) were exactly what was presented to me. Since the attorney I asked is one that I've dealt with for decades, I trust him - especially since he took the time to research it first.
Thing is, a BOS isn't going to be any true "proof" of anything unless it's witnessed - and even then, they are often successfully challenged in court. So while I understand what you're doing, I sincerely doubt that it'd do much more for you than what the results would be without it. But, hey - it's YOUR choice.
No more or less than what a dealer or store keeps. Nope, I'm not required to keep receipts, but I do for self preservation. I'm not sure how they would use my receipt to track down other firearms. We are not required to have our physical address on our drivers license.
There is no witness for a firearms transfer at the store, dealer, or even through a FFL holder. Their BOS is valid.
As far as asking LOE, I'll pass. Most LOE know what laws they were called into court for, a lot of the rest they are guessing at. I go by what my brother recommends. He's has a FFL and is a dealer.
But my state is different then your state. I don't even need a Permit to conceal.
You already had all the dirty work done for you if they have one. The Hells Angel wanting it WON'T have one!
Yes sir, a CHL trumps a DL in my opinion,...some states or counties will issue Driver's License to anyone walking across the border. We had a case here in Texas where a person got in trouble for selling a firearm to an illegal alien. The seller checked the buyer's DL which showed Texas and the proper age...but the person was still an illegal alien...go figure?
Anyhow, I honestly don't check ID to be honest. My main venue for selling firearms is full of local firearm enthusiast who I've talked to over the years or met or know someone who knows the buyer. A lot of these people are civil servant types as well like EMTs and LEOs etc. So if I don't know the buyer it's not hard to find someone who does. Example, I store most of my firearm collection at a friend's shop. I sold a couple rifles, H&K 94 and Milled AK about a year ago to help pay for my CDL. So I pulled those rifles out of my friend's safe and sold them to a guy I semi knew from this local website. Well this guy ends up selling them to my friend a few months ago. Now the same rifles are back in the same safe..although no longer mine, I'm able to shoot them anytime I wish lol This happens almost daily. People in our group buys something and sells it once they get bored...usually a few months later and generally to someone we know.
I'm not a gun dealer and I'm not bound by the same laws that they are. I'm a private citizen. If you want to purchase my gun, you will do what I ask, or you can hike on down the road and find adeal elsewhere. Same with selling a gun to me, I can find a gun elsewhere.
I cover my butt. As to the BOS not being worth a crap? Sure is. It's legally binding in my state. Probably isn't where you live.
Haven't touched your rights, it woud be you infringing on my rights to have proof that I transfered that firearm to another person, should it be used in a crime later. When they trace it, I want something showing that I nolonger own it, and like I say, where I live, we, and the courts, still honor a bill of sale.
Yes sir, a CHL trumps a DL in my opinion,...some states or counties will issue Driver's License to anyone walking across the border. We had a case here in Texas where a person got in trouble for selling a firearm to an illegal alien. The seller checked the buyer's DL which showed Texas and the proper age...but the person was still an illegal alien...go figure?
Anyhow, I honestly don't check ID to be honest. My main venue for selling firearms is full of local firearm enthusiast who I've talked to over the years or met or know someone who knows the buyer. A lot of these people are civil servant types as well like EMTs and LEOs etc. So if I don't know the buyer it's not hard to find someone who does. Example, I store most of my firearm collection at a friend's shop. I sold a couple rifles, H&K 94 and Milled AK about a year ago to help pay for my CDL. So I pulled those rifles out of my friend's safe and sold them to a guy I semi knew from this local website. Well this guy ends up selling them to my friend a few months ago. Now the same rifles are back in the same safe..although no longer mine, I'm able to shoot them anytime I wish lol This happens almost daily. People in our group buys something and sells it once they get bored...usually a few months later and generally to someone we know.
Anyone legit won't have a problem offering it up! You have a license to carry man? "Sure"!
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What I'm pointing out is that there is no such legal requirement, and rather than being of benefit to you, it COULD be to your detriment. Think I'm wrong? Go ask a cop that KNOWS firearms law - or better yet, a good attorney. I've done both (and I'm ex-LEO), and the above comments (plus many others) were exactly what was presented to me. Since the attorney I asked is one that I've dealt with for decades, I trust him - especially since he took the time to research it first.
