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Greetings, I'm looking to get some sort of clarification from people who know their guns and I admit it, my eyes are crossing when I'm looking for information on the internet. (I like City Data forums! )
Basically, I'm curious about "automated" guns. The kind where if you hold down the trigger, and it keeps shooting bullets.
I googled "what states have banned automatic weapons" and I got a bunch of articles referring to "assault weapons". I googled "what is an assault weapon" and I get:
"Assault weapon is a term used in the United States to define some types of firearms. The definition varies among regulating jurisdictions, but usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip, and sometimes other features such as a flash suppressor or barrel shroud."
Which made my eyes cross even more!
The reason I bring this up is because I was on the phone with my very conservative brother, who is totally on board with the 2nd Amendment. (I'm pretty clueless on the whole issue but I can say I'm not extreme in either direction, unlike a friend from the UK who thinks NO ONE should have ANY gun at all!)
Anyway, when we were talking about the terrorist attack in San Bernardino, Ca. and how it was reported that they apparently tried to turn their guns in the "fully automated" kind, my brother said how fully automated guns were illegal. I said I thought they were illegal in California, but he thought they were illegal in all the states! Now mind you he's my older half brother who's going on 80 and he kept referring to "the mob", machine guns and growing up in Chicago.
Okay, sorry for being long winded...
But aren't fully automated weapons legal in some states with a good background check and a few fees? I think I read that somewhere, but again I get confused between "fully automated" and "assault" and wouldn't the fully automated behave in the same way as a machine gun?
Thanks in advance for any info and especially your patience!
Rule #1 with guns, don't believe anything the media spews out.
The term is automatic, not automated
By definition an assault rifle can fire a single round with each trigger pull AND more than one with each pull depending on the mode selected by the shooter (called select fire). A weapon such as an AR-15 which can only fire in semi-automatic (one round per trigger pull) is not an assault weapon, but they are black and scary looking so the media calls them such.
Keep in mind that another AR-15 that looks identical to the one just mentioned but is select fire would be an assault weapon, it's not what the weapon looks like but what it can do. Neither the type of magazine nor the grip determine what is an assault weapon (except in the minds of the media and uneducated anti gun folks). The definition you found via Google is wrong.
As far as purchasing fully automatic weapons (classified as NFA items, silencers also fall under NFA) it is quite legal in most parts of the country, you just need to fill out some extra paperwork and pay some extra fees.
Thank you NHDave for the reply... and "no kidding" about "the media" which is why I asked here.
I think my brother will be very surprised... ha ha... he's one of those who if he gets something in his head, that's it! So he still might not believe me when I tell him it's legal in many states to own a fully automatic gun!!
BTW, I do have a question... could you (or anyone else) please give me a few examples as to why a regular citizen wants or needs a fully automatic weapon since if in the wrong hands it can do so much more damage?
And out of curiosity, and I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just want to hear from real gun users who know what the deal is, what does "reasonable" gun control look like to you? I hear that sometimes a lot of things slide at gun shows when it comes to background checks.
I think this recent paper from the Cato Institute will provide you with a complete understanding of the guns, the issues, and the Constitutionality (or lack thereof) of many of the proposals being discussed.
Most want them just for the enjoyment of the shooting hobby.
As far as your last question, this forum is for the discussion of firearms, the hobby, and their use etc. It is not for the discussion of gun control, background checks, etc. That is what the politics forum is for, there are many discussions there on the topic. https://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...controversies/
And out of curiosity, and I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just want to hear from real gun users who know what the deal is, what does "reasonable" gun control look like to you? I hear that sometimes a lot of things slide at gun shows when it comes to background checks.
Thank you so much for the non dramatic discussion
As far as fully-automatic weapons goes it all comes down to money. Since the registry is closed no new fully-automatic weapons can be added to the registry list; that has made all of the existing fully automatic weapons allowed to be owned by civilians has caused the price to go through the roof. In most cases you cannot even touch a fully-automatic weapon for under $10,000 and that is not including the $200 dollar tax stamp; and a lawyer to help push though the paperwork. Since the federal government, the state government and local governments need to sign off on the process for a person to own a fully-automatic weapon.
As far as what you are referring too with letting things slide at a gun show, that is also media hype. The "Supposed Gun Show Loophole" is nothing more than a private sale between two parties. Which in most states as the current law goes does not require a background check. What is implemented is Party A to Party B; are you Party B, Why Yes I am, here is my ID, and question back to Party B; Are you Party B wanted for any crimes; Why no I am not. This is best effort.
And given the sheer number of people at a Gun show the likely hood of being able to have a private sale between two parties increases significantly. Same as you would find at a car show. Now if you were to go to a business and they have a FFL license, a background check has to be performed just as if you had gone to their store.
Greetings, I'm looking to get some sort of clarification from people who know their guns and I admit it, my eyes are crossing when I'm looking for information on the internet. (I like City Data forums! )
Basically, I'm curious about "automated" guns. The kind where if you hold down the trigger, and it keeps shooting bullets.
I googled "what states have banned automatic weapons" and I got a bunch of articles referring to "assault weapons". I googled "what is an assault weapon" and I get:
"Assault weapon is a term used in the United States to define some types of firearms. The definition varies among regulating jurisdictions, but usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip, and sometimes other features such as a flash suppressor or barrel shroud."
Which made my eyes cross even more!
The reason I bring this up is because I was on the phone with my very conservative brother, who is totally on board with the 2nd Amendment. (I'm pretty clueless on the whole issue but I can say I'm not extreme in either direction, unlike a friend from the UK who thinks NO ONE should have ANY gun at all!)
Anyway, when we were talking about the terrorist attack in San Bernardino, Ca. and how it was reported that they apparently tried to turn their guns in the "fully automated" kind, my brother said how fully automated guns were illegal. I said I thought they were illegal in California, but he thought they were illegal in all the states! Now mind you he's my older half brother who's going on 80 and he kept referring to "the mob", machine guns and growing up in Chicago.
Okay, sorry for being long winded...
But aren't fully automated weapons legal in some states with a good background check and a few fees? I think I read that somewhere, but again I get confused between "fully automated" and "assault" and wouldn't the fully automated behave in the same way as a machine gun?
Thanks in advance for any info and especially your patience!
Lets see if I can simplify this for you.
1 trigger pull fires 1 bullet = semi-automatic (it loads another cartridge but doesnt fire.....hence the term 1/2 or semi auto)
1 trigger pull fires 2 or more bullets = fully automatic (it loads and fires another cartridge so long as the trigger is pressed...aka full auto or machine gun)
Now guns like the AR-15 can be either semi-automatic or full auto depending on how they are configured. When configured to be full auto then they are sold as M16s/M4s and available to police/military only. AK-47s can be semi or fully automatic.
Now there are a couple laws that have created the gun laws we have today.
First was the National Firearms Act of 1934. Known as NFA. This law was passed mainly to control the ownership of full auto weapons, explosive devices and etc. Once this passed a US citizen was now required to be registered to own one of these devices and pay a special tax. It covered full auto guns, suppressors (silencers), short barreled rifles/shotguns and explosive devices(grenades etc). All of these are referred to as CLASS III devices.
Then the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 or FOPA. FOPA made it illegal for anyone to register a machine gun that was manufactured after the date this law was passed.
So now if allowed by your state you can purchase a Class III gun (machine gun, suppressor, etc) as long as its was manufactured before FOPA. This is why you see machine gun prices for a pre 86 M16 over 10 grand while one manufactured today is about $1000. The one made today is unable to be purchased by the average citizen so they have to compete for the limited supply of already registered guns.
This of course makes absolutely no sense. Why you would restrict guns based on date of manufacture is dumb. It was mainly done to make several congressmen very rich as they had invested heavily in already registered guns then passed FOPA and then resold them at a much higher price.
The last law is the now repealed Federal Assault Weapons ban. This law was really dumb. It targeted guns based on how they looked and classified them as "Assault Weapons" then attempted to restrict their ownership. It targeted guns that had a detachable magazine plus 2 of the following features
folding stock
bayonet lug
flash suppressor
pistol grip
Lots and Lots of guns like the AR-15, AK-47 and SKS violated this law. Even though they functioned no differently than a more traditional looking semi automatic hunting guns. It would be similar to banning sports cars because they look fast. Stupid.
That is where the term Assault Weapon came to be. It really has no bearing on function. Its simply a descriptive term meant to conjure an image of a military weapon and with it the "common sense" required to know that regular people have no business owning such a weapon. Again very similar to saying people shouldn't be allowed to buy sports cars because they look fast.
As far as what states allow class III weapons, you can find a very complete listing here
Last edited by justanokie; 12-05-2015 at 03:19 PM..
BTW, I do have a question... could you (or anyone else) please give me a few examples as to why a regular citizen wants or needs a fully automatic weapon since if in the wrong hands it can do so much more damage?
And out of curiosity, and I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just want to hear from real gun users who know what the deal is, what does "reasonable" gun control look like to you? I hear that sometimes a lot of things slide at gun shows when it comes to background checks.
Thank you so much for the non dramatic discussion
First, there are hundreds of thousands of registered fully automatic weapons in private hands, I do not believe that there is a single instance of one of these registered guns being used to commit a crime.
Second, again it would be like saying you couldn't own a corvette, I mean why would you possibly need a car that goes that fast and uses that much gas.
Third, they are very fun to shoot.
Reasonable gun control to me is requiring a background check to buy a gun. Which we already have.
Things don't slide at gun shows. If you try to buy a gun at a gun show from a dealer you are getting a background check. PERIOD. What you are talking about is a private party sale. Currently I can sell one of my guns to anybody else that I want to. Its up to me to be responsible and record the buyers info and ask a few questions. What happens at gun shows is you have a lot of people there who bring their own guns for sell. So you not only have all the booths that the dealers are at but a lot of people walking around selling guns privately.
Things don't slide at gun shows. If you try to buy a gun at a gun show from a dealer you are getting a background check. PERIOD. What you are talking about is a private party sale. Currently I can sell one of my guns to anybody else that I want to. Its up to me to be responsible and record the buyers info and ask a few questions.
Specifically, questions about whether the person has done something or has a condition which legally prohibits them from owning a firearm. Apart from requiring a mandatory NCIS background check, private party sales (contrary to what the mainstream media implies) are subject to EXACTLY the same Federal and state laws that dealer sales are. Whether you're a dealer or a private person, it's illegal to sell a gun to a felon, someone who has been involuntarily committed to a mental institution, etc. If I sell a gun to John Smith, whom I just met, and it turns out that Mr. Smith is a felon, I am in deep doo-doo if I can't prove that he lied to me about his legal status. I could be prosecuted as a straw purchaser and sent to jail. Consequently, most folks are careful about who they sell to.
BTW, I do have a question... could you (or anyone else) please give me a few examples as to why a regular citizen wants or needs a fully automatic weapon since if in the wrong hands it can do so much more damage?
They're basically just range toys for rich "adult kids". It can be kind of fun to go to the shooting range and pretend to be Rambo for a bit (although those things eat ammo like you wouldn't believe, so not only are they hellaciously expensive to buy legally, they're hellaciously expensive to shoot).
But they are essentially never used in crimes. I think there are only two documented cases of a legally-owned fully automatic weapon being used in the commission of a crime (and one of those was by a police officer!). So what sense does it make to put any further restrictions on them?
As for the guns the California shooters used, if they were indeed full auto, they were semi-autos that had been illegally modified to shoot full auto. But since they were already intent on committing mass murder, I guess that pair wasn't intimidated by the thought of breaking yet another law...
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