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I never really liked the carbine concept. Are you really going to gain that much handiness by chopping that 18" barrel down to 16"? You will lose muzzle velocity for sure. It's especially bad with the .223/5.556 which is dependent on velocity for wound potential. How did we, the biggest, baddest nation on the planet, end up with a 14.5" M4 that is basically a 150 yard gun at best?
Give me my M1A w/ 22" barrel and full power cartridge.
One thing that has not been directly addressed, so far, is whether we're planning to "bug-out" or "bug-in" (pardon the term). It makes one whale of a difference, you know -- particularly to an old f*rt like me who gets winded from climbing more than four floors of stairs...
My choice for "bug-out" carbine is either going to be my tried-and-true Winchester M-1 carbine (absolutely deadly out to 200 yards) or my equally-tried-and-true, micro-groove, Marlin 1987C in .357 mag (absolutely deadly out to the same range). This is a quandary, because the only advantage to the M-1 is in a major firefight where lots of ammo has to go downrange really quickly. I intend to avoid such situations if at all possible.
My "bug-out" handgun is either going to be my 9mm SIG P226 (with the M-1 carbine) or my .357 mag S&W Model 19 Combat Masterpiece (with the Marlin).
My third firearm is my old Ithaca Model 37 M&P, 12-gauge obviously.
Now, for "bug-in" situations my rifle will be my Stag Arms AR-15 clone -- 20-inch heavy barrel with an exquisite & deadly accurate piece of glass. With this 'un, if this old f*rt can see it, he can hit it, out to 600+ yards. Because I'm bugging in and NOT humping the ammo, I can indulge myself by choosing my Colt Series 70 Combat Commander (.45 acp) as my handgun. Shotgun will remain the same. (Don't mess with success...)
-- Nighteyes
Good points. "Bug out/in". Weapons wise, it doesn't change my choices,, really. However, if I were in an environment where engagements would likely take place in closer quarter, such as my neighborhood of residence, I may want a pistol caliber. 45 or maybe 357 Sig semi auto carbine. A 357 Sig M4 would be a formidable mid distance to close tool.Truthfully, my 45 Colt Marlin 94 is as well. Accurate, stone reliable and very hard hitting, especially with hand loads.
Simplicity and ease of maintenance figure in big with my picks. I am very familiar with the platforms I've mentioned, and have all the tools, materials and spare parts to keep them running. A short barreled 12 ga would hardly make me feel naked before my enemies either. With the variety of ammunition I have on hand for me ol'. 12 bore. A better close to mid distance weapon would be hard to find.
Out in the scrub, my AR in 5.56 would go in the truck first. I dearly desire one in 243 Win. But my dream has not yet come true . When/ if it does, it moves to #1.
quickest way to get killed is to dig in with a bunch of guns and figure to shoot it out. its not like the movies son.
need one carbine a light one, my pick is hi point a cheapy but very light, and a bicycle, keep moving son.
Good points. "Bug out/in". Weapons wise, it doesn't change my choices,, really. However, if I were in an environment where engagements would likely take place in closer quarter, such as my neighborhood of residence, I may want a pistol caliber. 45 or maybe 357 Sig semi auto carbine. A 357 Sig M4 would be a formidable mid distance to close tool.Truthfully, my 45 Colt Marlin 94 is as well. Accurate, stone reliable and very hard hitting, especially with hand loads.
Simplicity and ease of maintenance figure in big with my picks. I am very familiar with the platforms I've mentioned, and have all the tools, materials and spare parts to keep them running. A short barreled 12 ga would hardly make me feel naked before my enemies either. With the variety of ammunition I have on hand for me ol'. 12 bore. A better close to mid distance weapon would be hard to find.
Out in the scrub, my AR in 5.56 would go in the truck first. I dearly desire one in 243 Win. But my dream has not yet come true . When/ if it does, it moves to #1.
I would MUCH rather a 5.56 carbine than a 357SIG carbine.
I would MUCH rather a 5.56 carbine than a 357SIG carbine.
Well...me to really. But I always have thought that cartridges originally developed for pistols, the Sig and the 10mm mainly, that didn't really fly as handgun rounds, due to being TOO much, would really shine in carbin;es and sub guns. They become more than manageable , and pick up considerable velocity from longer tubes. The venerable Uzi is made in 10mm in Israel, and another totally redesigned platform as well, and is quite well liked by those using it.
I vet the whole rifle vs handgun round in situations involving armor and heavy cover. Thus my desire for an AR in 243. I just like the round, and have taken varmints and game at considerable distance, one shot game over. 308 would be a more practical choice , as ammo could be had more readily from ...opposing forces. But the 243 is a flat out badazz, and I just have sa soft spot for it.
Truthfully, if it comes to a sh17fight, I'm under no illusions of being able to run for the hills. I'm not the man I used to be in the scrub. Long term living in a combat environment in the mountains here bouts would take its toll, quickly. I would be of better use covering my loved ones retreat into the wild, with no illusions of rejoining them and carrying on a glorious wilderness campaign.
I would be a liability for younger and more physically capable fighters. I could be of use, should I manage to get to a place of redoubt, a d I have enough of the medical supplies I need to keep going for a while. However, those same supplies would be better used to keep the tip of the spear sharp.
Well...me to really. But I always have thought that cartridges originally developed for pistols, the Sig and the 10mm mainly, that didn't really fly as handgun rounds, due to being TOO much, would really shine in carbin;es and sub guns. They become more than manageable , and pick up considerable velocity from longer tubes. The venerable Uzi is made in 10mm in Israel, and another totally redesigned platform as well, and is quite well liked by those using it.
I vet the whole rifle vs handgun round in situations involving armor and heavy cover. Thus my desire for an AR in 243. I just like the round, and have taken varmints and game at considerable distance, one shot game over. 308 would be a more practical choice , as ammo could be had more readily from ...opposing forces. But the 243 is a flat out badazz, and I just have sa soft spot for it.
Truthfully, if it comes to a sh17fight, I'm under no illusions of being able to run for the hills. I'm not the man I used to be in the scrub. Long term living in a combat environment in the mountains here bouts would take its toll, quickly. I would be of better use covering my loved ones retreat into the wild, with no illusions of rejoining them and carrying on a glorious wilderness campaign.
I would be a liability for younger and more physically capable fighters. I could be of use, should I manage to get to a place of redoubt, a d I have enough of the medical supplies I need to keep going for a while. However, those same supplies would be better used to keep the tip of the spear sharp.
At the end of the day, I must be practical.
The .357 Magnum, yes, but not the 357SIG. The SIG round doesn't pick up nearly as much velocity from the longer tube.
The .357 Magnum, yes, but not the 357SIG. The SIG round doesn't pick up nearly as much velocity from the longer tube.
That is probably true. I've never ran any tests to see. Now, the 45 Colt picks up considerable velocity in my 18 " Marlin as opposed to my 6" mod 25. And with hand loads utilizing slower powders with bullets in the 250-300 gr range, its a sledgehammer launcher. 20 gr of W296 with a 300 gr Hornady XTP produces 1300 fps in my Marlin. At 200 yds, it will wring a. Muleys neck, and drop him like a hot rock.
I can't use that load in my Smith, far to much, but in my River its fine. Though a bit punishing. As I think on it, I suppose the Sig doesn't have the case capacity to take advantage of the slower powders, so as a carbine round it wouldn't gain much. But the straight walls are a different story. 357 through 45 Colt, which covers the , 10mm 44 mag etc, shine in carbine length tubes.
That is probably true. I've never ran any tests to see. Now, the 45 Colt picks up considerable velocity in my 18 " Marlin as opposed to my 6" mod 25. And with hand loads utilizing slower powders with bullets in the 250-300 gr range, its a sledgehammer launcher. 20 gr of W296 with a 300 gr Hornady XTP produces 1300 fps in my Marlin. At 200 yds, it will wring a. Muleys neck, and drop him like a hot rock.
I can't use that load in my Smith, far to much, but in my River its fine. Though a bit punishing. As I think on it, I suppose the Sig doesn't have the case capacity to take advantage of the slower powders, so as a carbine round it wouldn't gain much. But the straight walls are a different story. 357 through 45 Colt, which covers the , 10mm 44 mag etc, shine in carbine length tubes.
Shortly, for many it will be a super soaker filled with bleach.
When TSHTF, happens, guns and ammunition aren't going to be anything to be concerned about.
Long before society breaks down or the givernment fails, natural disasters or those formed from some disease will do the dirty deed and for that firearms and ammunition is no defense. Running to them thar hills or fighting off the hoards isn't going to be in the cards.
Guns are great for personal security but when you put just a few people together who have them, eventually, without very high discipline that comes from centralized organization, dogs eat dogs. While a few people are able to sustain themselves and in doing so can employ firearms in that role, they are far and few between. You might be able to do it, but the person you come across who can't but also has guns and maybe more than you?
No matter where you think you'll go, someone else has the same idea.
I never really liked the carbine concept. Are you really going to gain that much handiness by chopping that 18" barrel down to 16"? You will lose muzzle velocity for sure. It's especially bad with the .223/5.556 which is dependent on velocity for wound potential. How did we, the biggest, baddest nation on the planet, end up with a 14.5" M4 that is basically a 150 yard gun at best?
Give me my M1A w/ 22" barrel and full power cartridge.
Well, the 5.56 is no-longer velocity dependent with modern ammunition design and technology.
I still view it as a 300m weapon in M4 guise, and 400m in M16A4 guise. However, other than mountain-range top to mountain-range top, it seems to be a GREAT choice. It certainly will work for 100% of the civilian and LE shootings that have taken place in the US, regarding distance concerns.
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