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Are there even that many people that work in Norfolk but live in VB (aside from the Navy Base)? I don't know many. I really don't see VB as a suburb of Norfolk at this point, it is an entity unto itself with a lower crime rate, higher median income, higher rated schools than Norfolk. Like VA Yankee said, why would VB want to play second fiddle to Norfolk?
I agree that the twin city kind of approach is what will likely happen with VB being less dense than Norfolk but having at least some medium density areas along that rail corridor (Newtown, Pembroke, Hilltop, Lynnhaven, Oceanfront). They bought the land already, the cities long term master plan includes it, I have to believe that it will eventually happen.
I would love to see VB become a denser suburb with Norfolk becoming a denser central city. That's a relationship between two cities that seems to work well every time. VB's development is too sprawl-oriented to achieve a real sense of density though. Nothing is transit-oriented, and it's all so boring and cheap architecturally. This is my biggest problem with VB, and I think it would benefit from setting up an urban growth boundary that the city would actually require developers to abide by. Isn't Red Mill Commons outside that line?
I thought VB has already established urban strategic growth areas. Do you not believe that they will stick to the plan?
I'm curious how are you defining xenophobia with relation to VB residents? How is a city full of transplants with no real local identity xenophobic?
New York City is a city of transplants, yet there is blatant xenophobia with respect to hipsters, and "real New Yorkers" are crying foul because it is not the filthy place it was back in the seventies.
America is a nation of transplants, yet xenophobia runs rampant. People come to this country like the own the place, and disrespect the people that are already here.
Funny thing about Virginia Beach; a lot of people fled the "real cities" of Hampton Roads to live there, and they want to keep it to themselves. People talk about racism in Virginia Beach, I don't think it is racism though, I think it is anything unlike the suburban mindset that is posited there.
I feel more at ease in Chesapeake, even though technically, that is another suburb of Hampton Roads. It can be as simple as not helping me when I go into a store, or the "why did you even come here" attitude if I am on a job interview, or any other calculated indifference. Yet the Black population is Virginia Beach is 19%, so it must be me having a different mindset.
If you read the Pilot, in most cases, the NIMBYs are from Virginia Beach, or claim to be. "We don't want people from Norfolk riding the train to the Oceanfront", or on some other threads I was posting to a while back, fear of what the people of Norfolk might do to them when they ride The Tide. That isn't a Black or White issue, that is xenophobia.
I just feel at home in the other cities. Virginia Beach does have better customer service in most cases, and is a bit warmer than other places but I feel out of place. It is very weird; now when I lived in South Norfolk I about wanted to kill myself because that is just a depressing place to live, no amenities, the most basic shopping experience you could ever imagine, no hotels, no restaurants except for Chinese and soul food.
I will say this much though; I never got a ticket in Virginia Beach. Every single one of the tickets I got, were in Chesapeake. Really dumb stuff like a rolling stop, or going 40 in a 25.
Town Center is a joke. My gripes with it are meant for a separate thread, but if you ever get the chance to read Paul Edwards' article "Citizenship Inc: Negotiating Civic Spaces in Post-Urban America" please do.
I would love to see VB become a denser suburb with Norfolk becoming a denser central city. That's a relationship between two cities that seems to work well every time. VB's development is too sprawl-oriented to achieve a real sense of density though. Nothing is transit-oriented, and it's all so boring and cheap architecturally. This is my biggest problem with VB, and I think it would benefit from setting up an urban growth boundary that the city would actually require developers to abide by. Isn't Red Mill Commons outside that line?
You're right that Norfolk can't spread out anymore, so they can really only build up. That's a good thing, like a natural UGB. There's still plenty of empty lots, vacant buildings, under-utilized parking garages, etc in and near Downtown that could be developed for more efficient uses in the future. Once more money begins to flow into Norfolk-based development, I hope that's what it goes towards. No more lame parks that were once going to be skyscrapers!
It is because Town Center is synthetic. You can't plan that sort of thing. It is plastic. There is a difference between a downtown that evolved over time, with old and new buildings, than a downtown full of buildings that were built over the same decade.
Unless there is some plan on the table to buy up the remaining farm land or scale back the military bases here Virginia Beach will eventually run out of land as well. But it will happen long after Norfolk does. Norfolk does have a lot of underutilized space; you should have that continuity. However, Norfolk is in a state unlike many Midwestern cities, or say Baltimore, where you have to spend billions of dollars just to undo the years of blight that affected its downtown. Once that occurs the city can then either decide if it wants to increase density elsewhere, or expand the boundaries of that downtown core.
Virginia Beach also has vacant lots and underutilized land. Much of it is across the street from Town Center. If Virginia Beach were to use up that land it would finally have a downtown typical for a city its size; the continuity would be nice, and it would be a real testament to the possibilities of Virginia Beach. That much is in the Pembroke Master Plan. There are other areas, but until that White elephant is addressed urbanity may never be taken seriously in Virginia Beach.
New York City is a city of transplants, yet there is blatant xenophobia with respect to hipsters, and "real New Yorkers" are crying foul because it is not the filthy place it was back in the seventies.
America is a nation of transplants, yet xenophobia runs rampant. People come to this country like the own the place, and disrespect the people that are already here.
Funny thing about Virginia Beach; a lot of people fled the "real cities" of Hampton Roads to live there, and they want to keep it to themselves. People talk about racism in Virginia Beach, I don't think it is racism though, I think it is anything unlike the suburban mindset that is posited there.
I feel more at ease in Chesapeake, even though technically, that is another suburb of Hampton Roads. It can be as simple as not helping me when I go into a store, or the "why did you even come here" attitude if I am on a job interview, or any other calculated indifference. Yet the Black population is Virginia Beach is 19%, so it must be me having a different mindset.
If you read the Pilot, in most cases, the NIMBYs are from Virginia Beach, or claim to be. "We don't want people from Norfolk riding the train to the Oceanfront", or on some other threads I was posting to a while back, fear of what the people of Norfolk might do to them when they ride The Tide. That isn't a Black or White issue, that is xenophobia.
I just feel at home in the other cities. Virginia Beach does have better customer service in most cases, and is a bit warmer than other places but I feel out of place. It is very weird; now when I lived in South Norfolk I about wanted to kill myself because that is just a depressing place to live, no amenities, the most basic shopping experience you could ever imagine, no hotels, no restaurants except for Chinese and soul food.
I will say this much though; I never got a ticket in Virginia Beach. Every single one of the tickets I got, where in Chesapeake. Really dumb stuff like a rolling stop, or going 40 in a 25.
I think that is all pretty reasonable. VB is definitely the NIMBY capital of the region. And I agree, VB is not particularly racist at all. I am in an interracial marriage and we don't even get a second look. I think you are right that there is a fear of change, and I think it does come from the sense that people moved to VB because it is safe and suburban. That is my point though, what is the poster child for what VB is afraid of?? It isn't hipsters, it isn't minorities, it isn't transplants... maybe liberal progressives??? We even have plenty of those. It just strikes me as something different than xenophobia.
As a general comment, VB residents fear of a subsidized train carrying residents from high crime areas to their statistically safe suburban neighborhoods is not necessarily what I would consider xenophobia either. It could be considered rational. Look at the crime rates in the areas where the train runs in Norfolk then look at the crime rates in the areas around the proposed rail line in VB. I support the expansion of rail to VB, but I can understand where some of the opponents are coming from as well.
I think that is all pretty reasonable. VB is definitely the NIMBY capital of the region. And I agree, VB is not particularly racist at all. I am in an interracial marriage and we don't even get a second look. I think you are right that there is a fear of change, and I think it does come from the sense that people moved to VB because it is safe and suburban. That is my point though, what is the poster child for what VB is afraid of?? It isn't hipsters, it isn't minorities, it isn't transplants... maybe liberal progressives??? We even have plenty of those. It just strikes me as something different than xenophobia.
As a general comment, VB residents fear of a subsidized train carrying residents from high crime areas to their statistically safe suburban neighborhoods is not necessarily what I would consider xenophobia either. It could be considered rational. Look at the crime rates in the areas where the train runs in Norfolk then look at the crime rates in the areas around the proposed rail line in VB. I support the expansion of rail to VB, but I can understand where some of the opponents are coming from as well.
I think I look at it from the perspective that a VB resident is suggesting that the person does not already have a way to get into VB to begin with. You have the bus, you have cars, you can literally, walk into VB from Norfolk, so the train does not really change things much. If anything, your high-crime Norfolk resident wants to go do things in his own city, or stay at businesses that support those areas, because he feels more at home there than he does in Virginia Beach.
It isn't any different from the fear I experience where I grew up in Akron, OH. People from the suburbs fear the inner-city dweller, but someone from the inner city never hangs out in the suburb! You might go there to shop, to see a play, catch a movie, and then you go back to the 'hood. If there was any shoplifting, and terrorizing folks it was because people from a 'hood that was directly across the street from the retail center in the suburbs walked across the street and acted ignorant. There isn't anything in Virginia Beach, close enough to Norfolk, for that to occur. If anything you have to go deep into Virginia Beach, to find the action. But again, if you are that determined, you will find a way to get there, and why would you stay there anyway?
Virginia Beach has their own 'hoods, within walking distance of great retail, so it is a moot point. I supposedly live in one of them. I guess for me it is the irrationality; no one really wants to hang out in Virginia Beach like that, perhaps a VB resident does, because that is where they decided to plant their roots, but a Norfolk resident is not thinking about VB like that.
If you look at any of the clubs or anywhere where there was a shooting or something unsavory happened in Virginia Beach, chances are, the neighborhood was not that great anyway, and just happened to be in Virginia Beach. I remember the MP Island Cafe was always a hot spot to be caught in where they shot up the place, but what is around the Island Cafe; a bunch of apartment complexes where the people do not have anything invested in that neighborhood, and a bunch of transients that do not know how to act.
But you're right, perhaps it is not xenophobia. I am not sure what to call it.
It is because Town Center is synthetic. You can't plan that sort of thing. It is plastic. There is a difference between a downtown that evolved over time, with old and new buildings, than a downtown full of buildings that were built over the same decade.
I think that is the point that a lot of people miss, these kinds of things don't happen overnight. You can't just plop down a bunch of buildings and make it a vibrant downtown in a couple years. What are the expectations here? I see the Pembroke are being a good downtown by 2020 or 2025 at the earliest... not by 2015. Of course town center is too small and too synthetic right now. They only started building there a decade ago. Do people expect it to come that quickly?
I think I look at it from the perspective that a VB resident is suggesting that the person does not already have a way to get into VB to begin with. You have the bus, you have cars, you can literally, walk into VB from Norfolk, so the train does not really change things much. If anything, your high-crime Norfolk resident wants to go do things in his own city, or stay at businesses that support those areas, because he feels more at home there than he does in Virginia Beach.
It isn't any different from the fear I experience where I grew up in Akron, OH. People from the suburbs fear the inner-city dweller, but someone from the inner city never hangs out in the suburb! You might go there to shop, to see a play, catch a movie, and then you go back to the 'hood. If there was any shoplifting, and terrorizing folks it was because people from a 'hood that was directly across the street from the retail center in the suburbs walked across the street and acted ignorant. There isn't anything in Virginia Beach, close enough to Norfolk, for that to occur. If anything you have to go deep into Virginia Beach, to find the action. But again, if you are that determined, you will find a way to get there, and why would you stay there anyway?
Virginia Beach has their own 'hoods, within walking distance of great retail, so it is a moot point. I supposedly live in one of them. I guess for me it is the irrationality; no one really wants to hang out in Virginia Beach like that, perhaps a VB resident does, because that is where they decided to plant their roots, but a Norfolk resident is not thinking about VB like that.
If you look at any of the clubs or anywhere where there was a shooting or something unsavory happened in Virginia Beach, chances are, the neighborhood was not that great anyway, and just happened to be in Virginia Beach. I remember the MP Island Cafe was always a hot spot to be caught in where they shot up the place, but what is around the Island Cafe; a bunch of apartment complexes where the people do not have anything invested in that neighborhood, and a bunch of transients that do not know how to act.
But you're right, perhaps it is not xenophobia. I am not sure what to call it.
I kind of agree and kind of disagree. My dad lives just outside of St Louis and folks do use the train to go to other neighborhoods and cause trouble. Just like Norfolk, there is no turnstile or security so anyone can get on at any time.
I think the allure is the strip and town center, the other neighborhoods are just along the way. Of course nobody is gonna ride the train to go to Rosemont or something. But I think a lot people remember the strip back in the 90's, that place was seedy. We would go cruise down there and get eyed out at every street corner. If I was walking with my girlfriend guys would holler at her like I wasn't even around and if you said something back it was gonna turn into a fight with 4 or 5 guys.
Either way though, you are right in that it is probably blown way out of proportion. Most folks hang out where they live.
I think that is the point that a lot of people miss, these kinds of things don't happen overnight. You can't just plop down a bunch of buildings and make it a vibrant downtown in a couple years. What are the expectations here? I see the Pembroke are being a good downtown by 2020 or 2025 at the earliest... not by 2015. Of course town center is too small and too synthetic right now. They only started building there a decade ago. Do people expect it to come that quickly?
I was under the impression that the financing was already in place to finish it off. That obviously is not the case. The way things are going, we'll be lucky if they finish building it by 2015.
On the other hand, the place does see a lot of activity at night. Does not appear as though much is going on there when the bars close, or during the day, but that is probably because people need to go to work and just are not around for the most part. The challenge it has is to create an environment where people are there all day long. On the other hand, if more people worked there, they would hang around a bit before heading home.
The museum on the Oceanfront should move to Town Center, or they should build another museum in Town Center, in order to give it more of a day time presence. Town Center could offer a rich cultural experience during the day, and then at night provide that vibrant place for people to play. I would also like to see an actual club in Town Center; Virginia Beach people have to go to the Oceanfront, and that should not have to be the case. Not another bar, but a real club, with more than one floor. Sandler is good at night, but the word is not getting out about what they do during the day.
Barnes and Nobles should build a multi-level store in Town Center, or they should put a multi-level Target or perhaps one of those urban WalMart, like they are in DC. The one that exists now is too small and cramped.
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