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Old 02-09-2021, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
163 posts, read 126,786 times
Reputation: 160

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Harrisburg city's midtown and downtown sections are about to experience a housing boom with hundreds of units, plus a full-scale grocery store, planned or in the works:

https://theburgnews.com/in-the-burg/...lding-projects

https://theburgnews.com/news/midtown...-steps-forward

https://theburgnews.com/news/midtown...ives-approvals
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Old 02-09-2021, 01:32 PM
 
403 posts, read 138,661 times
Reputation: 369
This is all very positive.

I actually know the one developer who is from the Philadelphia market. He spoke to me about the Harrisburg market about two years ago and an interest in developing there, citing there was a lack of new, modern residential units.

I would not be surprised if he also did a large mixed use project in either Hershey or Camp Hill as well.

I notice the other developer is from the Baltimore market.

Harrisburg has so much potential all around, and there was always lots of talk that the new courthouse was going to stir new development in Midtown so it is awesome to see that come into fruition.

Harrisburg city is severely lacking in modern rental units, so its great to see this low/mid rise type of development take place.

I only see this wave continuing, as the DC and even Philadelphia markets continue to get pricey (Philadelphia is now getting super expensive) that more and more demand will be within the Harrisburg market, as people look for more affordable area, that is still close to the large metros.

If Harrisburg can keep this momentum I really see it spilling over into more development downtown as well.

I will say though I think the two way second street project is a disaster and will hurt potential Uptown Harrisburg development.
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Old 02-09-2021, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
163 posts, read 126,786 times
Reputation: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penna76 View Post
This is all very positive.

I actually know the one developer who is from the Philadelphia market. He spoke to me about the Harrisburg market about two years ago and an interest in developing there, citing there was a lack of new, modern residential units.

I would not be surprised if he also did a large mixed use project in either Hershey or Camp Hill as well.

I notice the other developer is from the Baltimore market.

Harrisburg has so much potential all around, and there was always lots of talk that the new courthouse was going to stir new development in Midtown so it is awesome to see that come into fruition.

Harrisburg city is severely lacking in modern rental units, so its great to see this low/mid rise type of development take place.

I only see this wave continuing, as the DC and even Philadelphia markets continue to get pricey (Philadelphia is now getting super expensive) that more and more demand will be within the Harrisburg market, as people look for more affordable area, that is still close to the large metros.

If Harrisburg can keep this momentum I really see it spilling over into more development downtown as well.

I will say though I think the two way second street project is a disaster and will hurt potential Uptown Harrisburg development.
I agree. I was skeptical that the courthouse would really drive development but it looks like that's working, bigtime. There's also a lot of pent-up demand and the area is attractively positioned close to big cities as you point out. Downtown continues to see a steady stream of office-to-residential conversions. Despite the fact there are several high rise residential buildings, the downtown definitely lacks vibrancy after-hours. Hoping to see that change as residential projects continue.

I do strongly disagree about the 2nd street conversion. The worst part of living in midtown/uptown is having to cross what feels like a highway of suburban commuters just to access the riverfront. I used to live a block away and could hear the vehicles racing up the street at all hours. The lane reduction will make the street much more pedestrian and bicycle-friendly, almost assuredly increasing property values along 2nd street as well. The only aspect of the plan I don't particularly like is the roundabouts. I would prefer traffic signals synchronized to 20 miles per hour.
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Old 02-09-2021, 03:08 PM
 
403 posts, read 138,661 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge12 View Post
I agree. I was skeptical that the courthouse would really drive development but it looks like that's working, bigtime. There's also a lot of pent-up demand and the area is attractively positioned close to big cities as you point out. Downtown continues to see a steady stream of office-to-residential conversions. Despite the fact there are several high rise residential buildings, the downtown definitely lacks vibrancy after-hours. Hoping to see that change as residential projects continue.

I do strongly disagree about the 2nd street conversion. The worst part of living in midtown/uptown is having to cross what feels like a highway of suburban commuters just to access the riverfront. I used to live a block away and could hear the vehicles racing up the street at all hours. The lane reduction will make the street much more pedestrian and bicycle-friendly, almost assuredly increasing property values along 2nd street as well. The only aspect of the plan I don't particularly like is the roundabouts. I would prefer traffic signals synchronized to 20 miles per hour.
I know Harrisburg very well. I am not against some form of lane reduction, and yes it is used as a commuter road to the 81 interchange.

But in effect that connection to 81 is needed.

Front Street is a one way road into the city from the North and East/West suburbs off of 81, and you are completely cutting that off with this two lane conversion by reducing second street.

The new exit out of the city to 81 will be using multiple signals and intersections that make zero sense. Or using Cameron St. which is sort of a mess as it is. A very high speed road, with even less visibility than 2nd St and more dangerous intersections.

(I have an entire other blurb how the current location of the PA Farm show complex hurts the city, but that is a different thread).

I am ALL FOR lane reductions on 2nd st. But not the two way conversion. It is actually very silly, considering Front St. is one way.

They did the same thing in Carlisle.

They reduced the traffic lanes along its main corridor from two lanes each direction to one lane each direction about 5 years ago.

And now traffic is an absolute mess there. It is awful.

It takes nearly 20 minutes to get from one end of the town to the other. Traveling about 5 miles.

You can except even worse in Harrisburg with 2nd St.

I don't think Papenfuse is that great of a Mayor.

I doubt he has ever really spent much time in large cities to really have a true vision for Harrisburg.

He is just. Blah. And was the driver behind the 2nd st. reduction. It will be his legacy project. Because otherwise he has not done much else. And none of these leaders in Harrisburg are that experienced with transit.

Lancaster is a prime example of how to rebuild Harrisburg, and I don't think anyone in Harrisburg wants anything to do with Lancaster.

If there was true Regional vision by the city and county/state and Susquehanna Valley we could see some real progress.

2nd St should be reduced to 2 lanes, with a new BRT installation (think Light Rail light but with a bus and stations), with dedicated stations along the entire corridor, and the exact same along Third St. for making southbound travel.

Then you would see an incredible rise in home values (as you quoted).

This 2 lane conversion is a complete waste of money and poor planning.

Last edited by Penna76; 02-09-2021 at 03:19 PM..
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Old 02-09-2021, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
163 posts, read 126,786 times
Reputation: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penna76 View Post
I know Harrisburg very well. I am not against some form of lane reduction, and yes it is used as a commuter road to the 81 interchange.

But in effect that connection to 81 is needed.

Front Street is a one way road into the city from the North and East suburbs off of 81, and you are completely cutting that off with this two lane conversion by reducing second street.

The new exit out of the city to 81 will be using multiple signals and intersections that make zero sense. Or using Cameron St. which is sort of a mess as it is.

(I have an entire other blurb how the current PA Farm show complex hurts the city, but that is a different thread).

I am ALL FOR lane reductions on 2nd st. But not the two way conversion. It is actually very silly.

I don't think Papenfuse is that great of a Mayor.

I doubt he has ever really spent much time in large cities to really have a true vision for Harrisburg.

He is just. Blah. And was the driver behind the 2nd st. reduction. It will be his legacy project. Because otherwise he has not done much else.

If there was true Regional vision by the city and county/state.

Then 2nd St would be reduced to 2 lanes, with a new BRT installation (think Light Rail light), with dedicated stations along the entire corridor, and the exact same along Third St. for making southbound travel.

This current installation is very expensive and very short sighted.
I would love to see BRT along 2nd street but let's be real: it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes. I think where we disagree is what does 2nd street function as? I think it should function as a neighborhood, residential street that better serves the needs of residents in the city. I don't think it should serve simply as an on-ramp to I-81. There are two lanes northbound on 7th street and 2 lanes northbound on Cameron street that one can take to I-81 out of the city which is more than enough, IMO.
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Old 02-09-2021, 03:23 PM
 
403 posts, read 138,661 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge12 View Post
I would love to see BRT along 2nd street but let's be real: it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes. I think where we disagree is what does 2nd street function as? I think it should function as a neighborhood, residential street that better serves the needs of residents in the city. I don't think it should serve simply as an on-ramp to I-81. There are two lanes northbound on 7th street and 2 lanes northbound on Cameron street that one can take to I-81 out of the city which is more than enough, IMO.

Im fairly young. (late 20s) so it can most definitely happen in our lifetime.

I mean Dauphin County proposed a Commuter Rail Line back in the mid 2000s connecting, Carlisle, Camp Hill, Harrisburg, Hershey, Lancaster and York.

A BRT line is not that hard to accomplish. It requires land and space. Which 2nd st has.

I work in transportation planning in Philadelphia, I am aware of the obstacles.

If Harrisburg continues the residential development projects that you highlighted, the demand for a BRT line from Uptown to Downtown could be highly successful within the next ten years and even drive further growth into the city.

The two way lane idea is just bad planning all around.

Front st is a one way road.

Do you also want to turn that into a two lane road?? That in effect is going backwards.

Its bad planning. There is no need for 2nd st to have two lanes in each direction. Harrisburg does in fact rely on its suburbs for a lot of its economic drive/growth, so impeding that by bad transportation planning is a detriment to the city.

The fact parking is privatized and cost the rate it does (more than Philadelphia), I think is one of the biggest reasons why Harrisburg is falling behind Lancaster with its revitalization. It is a testament of how much small cities do depend on their surrounding communities as economic engines.

Harrisburg should turn to Lancaster as a model of local growth. Lancaster has 6 one way roadways that go from its core to the suburbs in all directions. And it has strong residential growth and is much further along than Harrisburg.

If anything reduce the lane to two lanes in its current one way form and put in speed barriers. Like speed humps or speed cameras and time traffic lights at 25 MPH. This would be 1/3 of the project cost, while achieving the same goals.

It would be FAR more cost effective while achieving the goals you desire to reduce speed travel and increase the community feel of the neighborhood.

Last edited by Penna76; 02-09-2021 at 03:33 PM..
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Old 02-09-2021, 07:43 PM
 
Location: The Allegheny
1,397 posts, read 1,585,967 times
Reputation: 1632
This is all well and good yet the state capital of a very populated state doesn't have a bus system running 7 days a week.
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Old 02-10-2021, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
163 posts, read 126,786 times
Reputation: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penna76 View Post
Im fairly young. (late 20s) so it can most definitely happen in our lifetime.

I mean Dauphin County proposed a Commuter Rail Line back in the mid 2000s connecting, Carlisle, Camp Hill, Harrisburg, Hershey, Lancaster and York.

A BRT line is not that hard to accomplish. It requires land and space. Which 2nd st has.

I work in transportation planning in Philadelphia, I am aware of the obstacles.

If Harrisburg continues the residential development projects that you highlighted, the demand for a BRT line from Uptown to Downtown could be highly successful within the next ten years and even drive further growth into the city.

The two way lane idea is just bad planning all around.

Front st is a one way road.

Do you also want to turn that into a two lane road?? That in effect is going backwards.

Its bad planning. There is no need for 2nd st to have two lanes in each direction. Harrisburg does in fact rely on its suburbs for a lot of its economic drive/growth, so impeding that by bad transportation planning is a detriment to the city.

The fact parking is privatized and cost the rate it does (more than Philadelphia), I think is one of the biggest reasons why Harrisburg is falling behind Lancaster with its revitalization. It is a testament of how much small cities do depend on their surrounding communities as economic engines.

Harrisburg should turn to Lancaster as a model of local growth. Lancaster has 6 one way roadways that go from its core to the suburbs in all directions. And it has strong residential growth and is much further along than Harrisburg.

If anything reduce the lane to two lanes in its current one way form and put in speed barriers. Like speed humps or speed cameras and time traffic lights at 25 MPH. This would be 1/3 of the project cost, while achieving the same goals.

It would be FAR more cost effective while achieving the goals you desire to reduce speed travel and increase the community feel of the neighborhood.
The 2nd street proposal isn't two lanes each direction. It's one lane in each direction with buffered bike lanes. Totally appropriate for a neighborhood residential street through a small city. You're not gonna change my mind on that one. I agree with the planners and engineers who designed it (again, sans the roundabouts). It sounds like you want it to function as a companion to Front street northbound. It's been like that for decades (it was changed in the 1950s) and it hasn't been working for anyone except suburban commuters. Like I said before, there's still 7th street northbound and Cameron street northbound. Both have plenty of capacity to handle suburban commuter traffic. Which has the benefit of drawing it out of downtown and away from the residential neighborhoods. And by the way, northbound is just a fraction of overall commuter traffic. I would argue most commuter traffic probably goes east/west or to 83.

And BRT would be nice but speed or dedicated lanes isn't the problem with CAT. They don't have enough funding to run even a baseline level of service on most routes. You're right about CorridorOne which was voted down by the backwards thinking Cumberland County commissioners at the time.

I'm not sure I see the Lancaster comparison here. Even with the 2nd street change, Harrisburg will still have three major roadways in and out of the city with multiple lanes connecting it to I-81. Two major roadways with multiple lanes going east. Two major roadways with multiple lanes connecting the south side with I-83. And of course, two major roadways going west across the river.

Last edited by bridge12; 02-10-2021 at 08:41 AM..
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Old 02-11-2021, 10:53 AM
 
403 posts, read 138,661 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge12 View Post
The 2nd street proposal isn't two lanes each direction. It's one lane in each direction with buffered bike lanes. Totally appropriate for a neighborhood residential street through a small city. You're not gonna change my mind on that one. I agree with the planners and engineers who designed it (again, sans the roundabouts). It sounds like you want it to function as a companion to Front street northbound. It's been like that for decades (it was changed in the 1950s) and it hasn't been working for anyone except suburban commuters. Like I said before, there's still 7th street northbound and Cameron street northbound. Both have plenty of capacity to handle suburban commuter traffic. Which has the benefit of drawing it out of downtown and away from the residential neighborhoods. And by the way, northbound is just a fraction of overall commuter traffic. I would argue most commuter traffic probably goes east/west or to 83.

And BRT would be nice but speed or dedicated lanes isn't the problem with CAT. They don't have enough funding to run even a baseline level of service on most routes. You're right about CorridorOne which was voted down by the backwards thinking Cumberland County commissioners at the time.

I'm not sure I see the Lancaster comparison here. Even with the 2nd street change, Harrisburg will still have three major roadways in and out of the city with multiple lanes connecting it to I-81. Two major roadways with multiple lanes going east. Two major roadways with multiple lanes connecting the south side with I-83. And of course, two major roadways going west across the river.

I will agree to disagree with the 2nd st proposal. I am 100% for Harrisburg and midtown becoming the best version of itself it can.

And I am also 100% for traffic calming measures to discourage the 'freeway' mentality that 2nd st is currently used as.

There are MUCH MUCH MUCH more affordable and smarter methods to go about that, then making it a two way road, with one lane in each direction.

There are many traffic calming measures that can be utilized. I would emphasize, speed humps, traffic light coordination for 25 MPH and a full bus and bike lane, would be the best option

With that. CAT is a mess. But you do realize that with the project cost to turn 2nd st into a two way road, that the same money could be invested into CAT's first BRT line up 2nd st and down Front St??

This would be far more effective and a much larger benefit for the neighborhood. And it would nearly be the same to pilot for 5 years .

This would encourage far more economic development for the neighborhood than a two way roadway.
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Old Today, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
163 posts, read 126,786 times
Reputation: 160
Another article on the development boom in Harrisburg: https://theburgnews.com/business/we-...ving-the-trend
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