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Old 04-29-2020, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Kahala
11,969 posts, read 16,379,967 times
Reputation: 5988

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf View Post
I disagree that C19 is more deadly than the flu.
Based on what? Let's take the deadliest flu season from the past decade. 2017-2018

Total U.S. cases: 44,802,629
Total U.S. hospitalizations: 808,129
Total U.S. deaths: 61,099
Percentage of deaths that are 65+: 83.3%

As of the time I write this

Covid-19 US cases: 1,056,056
Deaths: 61,180

We now have more Covid deaths in a much shorter amount of time than the deadliest US flu outbreak the past 10 years. Nobody is suggesting we've had 44,802,629 US Covid cases so far or even close. Sure, we've had more than a million cases - 44 million, no. Even if I concede 20,000,000 cases so far in the US it is still far deadlier than flu - and has no vaccine.
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Old 04-29-2020, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
27,732 posts, read 14,667,341 times
Reputation: 29750
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1 View Post
Based on what? Let's take the deadliest flu season from the past decade. 2017-2018

Total U.S. cases: 44,802,629
Total U.S. hospitalizations: 808,129
Total U.S. deaths: 61,099
Percentage of deaths that are 65+: 83.3%

As of the time I write this

Covid-19 US cases: 1,056,056
Deaths: 61,180

We now have more Covid deaths in a much shorter amount of time than the deadliest US flu outbreak the past 10 years. Nobody is suggesting we've had 44,802,629 US Covid cases so far or even close. Sure, we've had more than a million cases - 44 million, no. Even if I concede 20,000,000 cases so far in the US it is still far deadlier than flu - and has no vaccine.
I can't speak for NYfinestbxtf, but I'd wager that its because its a near certainty that way more than 1,056,056 people have covid in the US. That's merely the diagnosed number of people in a period where testing isn't very widespread and particularly easy. But, a random sampling of people in NYC shows that 1/4 of the people tested at random had covid antibodies, while the figures were more in line with 1 in 7 stateside: https://www.livescience.com/covid-an...york-test.html

Even when you take out NYC, Long Island, and Westchester County (the hotbed locations in NYS), the rate per antibodies was at 3.2%.

1 in 7 New Yorkers having had covid would mean nearly 3 million people have or had covid in NYS alone. Given that NYS has confirmed 300,000 covid cases so far, that would mean that another 2.6 million (roughly) additional people have covid in NYS that aren't counted. Granted, there are questions about the accuracy of the antibodies testing, but that's another conversation.

If similar stats hold true, we would easily have more than 20 million covid cases nationwide. And we aren't done yet, sadly.

Note, I don't know if this translates to covid being less deadly than the flu, but it would certainly make things much closer than the current hard numbers suggest.

Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 04-29-2020 at 06:41 PM..
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Old 04-29-2020, 05:52 PM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,117,484 times
Reputation: 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1 View Post
Based on what? Let's take the deadliest flu season from the past decade. 2017-2018

Total U.S. cases: 44,802,629
Total U.S. hospitalizations: 808,129
Total U.S. deaths: 61,099
Percentage of deaths that are 65+: 83.3%

As of the time I write this

Covid-19 US cases: 1,056,056
Deaths: 61,180

We now have more Covid deaths in a much shorter amount of time than the deadliest US flu outbreak the past 10 years. Nobody is suggesting we've had 44,802,629 US Covid cases so far or even close. Sure, we've had more than a million cases - 44 million, no. Even if I concede 20,000,000 cases so far in the US it is still far deadlier than flu - and has no vaccine.
No one knows how many tens of millions have been infected by C19, but from The antibody testing that is being done is proving more people are infected than thought.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...oston-chicago/
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Old 04-30-2020, 09:47 AM
 
Location: On the water.
20,741 posts, read 13,723,014 times
Reputation: 18550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf View Post
Good evening Veteran! Thank you for your service by the way.

Our back and forth did creep into politics and without a doubt you threw in the bait and I took it. After all, politics are fun to talk about. Why not.

They very well might not riot and no one shouldn’t, but What I do know is everyone has a breaking point. It is not like protesting the 1% or woman’s rights or whatever dumb stuff people protest. We are in a new territory of people’s actual livelihoods and lives being threatened. When it comes down to survival, your guess is as good as mine. When it goes beyond just making a statement, I think we can become quite unpredictable.

I don’t recall talking about overpopulation, but I don’t believe we were designed to only live in small groups. First and foremost we were created to be in relationship with God, our creator. I honestly believe mankind has done quite well living in large societies. We have also done quite well living in small groups. It’s really all relative when it is our creator who wants to be in relationship with us and as a matter of fact, Christian missionaries who have encounters tribes have come across tribes who understand the fundamentals of the gospel without ever reading the gospel. It’s quite interesting.

Please point out the spin? I believe I tell it as I see it.

Maybe I’m wrong, but you brought up the many commentators you follow and look up to as if they were conservatives and I challenged you on that. Seriously, Kasich a conservative. Come on!!! All the people you listed are NOT conservatives. Maybe once upon a time, but not now. I do not think you understand the philosophical understanding of American Constitutional conservatism.

You call me a Trumper, you sir are a never Trumper. You extol the Bushes or at least HW Bush as the voice of conservatism, yet President Trump has been the conservative. Explain to me how President Trump has not been a conservative in his policies? How has president Trump attempted to expand the size of government? Has he not left the responsibility to the response of C19 to the states? Has he closed down the states? Has he ordered them to open back up? What in the hell are you talking about? Has he not removed a boatload of regulations? Has he not cut taxes for every single wage earner? You’re just making stuff up.

Yes, the left has been and is attempting to fundamentally transform this nation into something else since the early 20th century. If you don’t think so, it is time to wake up.

The Trump fanaticism? Yeah, he has big rallies. What in your opinion is president Trump trying to turn this nation into? From what I have seen he has appointed Constitutional conservatives to the courts, he has cut endless regulation, he has cut taxes, he’s been working on better trade deals, he’s honored states rights. What in the hell am I missing? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t worship golden calf’s, but when it comes to in regards to my philosophical worldview, Trump has been mostly conservative.

I’m a true believer in what? In our Constitution? The Word of God? What exactly? What kool aid do you believe I’m drinking.

The article is interesting, but speculation. It is not based on hard data and science and most definitely as they admit can’t be connected to C19. Come on man. Even if those deaths can be attributed to C19, it pales in comparison to the projected millions of people who die from C19. You’re reaching.

The data we do have is that the death rate of C19 is .1% and those under the age of 45 it is much less. Shutting down the economy will go down as one of the worst policy decisions ever made. And Trump didn’t do it. Each and every governor did. Just saying.
Howdy.

Well sir, my initial comment about Trump wasn’t intended as “bait” ... I was making an incidental parallel. You responded that you didn’t want to discuss politics. My response, then and now, was / is: politics is, regrettably, tangled in the viral mix. That said, politics is not my primary motivation in commentary, and I’m trying to not stray far off into it other than its relationship to the virus crisis. I’ll respond only marginally to generalizations beyond the topical connection. Your opinion of life-long conservatives having “changed” is just not supportable. I am a ‘Never Trumper’ for sure ... no apologies. And you can be a ‘Trumper’ in turn. You can believe Trump has an ideology other than self-love and tv-ratings. But what you can’t do is change the history of conservatism in fact. And Trump doesn’t have any connection to conservatism other than co-opting the term and selected few talking points to develop an audience for his new “America: the Trump Reality TV Show.”

If you like what he sells, you like what he sells. Your business. It is not conservative business. And I’m not up for much more commentary about that in this thread.

Where Trump comes in to this topic is: his phenomenal mismanagement and abuse and incompetence. He tried to declare himself Emperor of America to dictate how every governor must regulate - or not - every state. When he was schooled by his legal counsel and advisors, and many GOP senators and representatives as well as Democrats, and a raft of obstreperous governors that he couldn’t get away with that, he flipped over to declaring himself the champion of states’ rights.

He was initially dismissive of the warning intelligence being fed him, and then minimized the emerging outbreak as a non-event. Now of course he is blaming WHO while claiming he has been aggressively responsive from the get-go.

His recent comments about UV disinfectants ranks among the most bizarrely uneducated, flat out stupid, dangerous utterances ever made by a politician. You and poster Prospect defended this nonsense as “out of context” reporting and referenced Trump’s later attempts to minimize the stupidity. But fact is, the issue Trump raised was how disinfecting human bodies - by UV and toxic chemicals - was something he wanted his team to “look into”. When he later said “not by injection” after first including injections of disinfectants as a possibility, he never addressed the full context of his comments, which was: that [dangerously harmful] UV and toxic chemistries should be considered for internal “cleansing.”

You have, correctly, pointed out that anyone who takes those ideas seriously is an ‘effing idiot. Well, yes. I agree. And the world is loaded with ‘effing idiots. You seem to infer that “Darwinism” maybe should cleanse humanity a bit by accepting the demise of any such idiots.

Without weighing in on any value to that inference, let me ask you this:
If those people who have ingested cleaning products since hearing Trump’s comments (would you like links to the cases that have cropped up - and to the reports of Ohio, and NY, and numerous other states that have had surges of calls about this to their poison control centers ... proving the point of how many idiots there are?) - If these people are idiots to listen ... what is the leader who makes the brain-dead suggestion on national tv press conference watched by ten’s of millions of viewers?

Yes, this is the “leader” of the free world.

What is he trying to turn this country into? ... Heh: The Trump Show. And he’s done it.

What are you a “True Believer” of? The Trump Show. Own it.

I can go on.

But back to how this affects Hawaii, which is where I first engaged you over your projections of social upheaval in reaction to the shut down. You appear to grasp now at least somewhat, that, of all other states, Hawaii is pretty much least likely to erupt in open rioting and rebellion. Unique location. Unique melding of cultures apart from the mainland Trump Show. The people of Hawaii, for the most part, are more likely to, and interested in, coming together to support family and community than other parts of the nation. The majority will share and endure together ... in spite of Trump’s chaos and incompetence.
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Old 04-30-2020, 05:52 PM
 
Location: On the water.
20,741 posts, read 13,723,014 times
Reputation: 18550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf View Post
... It looks like the deaths in the US won’t break 60,000.
...
Eight days since the above prediction ... and we have passed the 60,000. More than the Vietnam war.
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Old 04-30-2020, 07:03 PM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,117,484 times
Reputation: 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Howdy.

Well sir, my initial comment about Trump wasn’t intended as “bait” ... I was making an incidental parallel. You responded that you didn’t want to discuss politics. My response, then and now, was / is: politics is, regrettably, tangled in the viral mix. That said, politics is not my primary motivation in commentary, and I’m trying to not stray far off into it other than its relationship to the virus crisis. I’ll respond only marginally to generalizations beyond the topical connection. Your opinion of life-long conservatives having “changed” is just not supportable. I am a ‘Never Trumper’ for sure ... no apologies. And you can be a ‘Trumper’ in turn. You can believe Trump has an ideology other than self-love and tv-ratings. But what you can’t do is change the history of conservatism in fact. And Trump doesn’t have any connection to conservatism other than co-opting the term and selected few talking points to develop an audience for his new “America: the Trump Reality TV Show.”

If you like what he sells, you like what he sells. Your business. It is not conservative business. And I’m not up for much more commentary about that in this thread.

Where Trump comes in to this topic is: his phenomenal mismanagement and abuse and incompetence. He tried to declare himself Emperor of America to dictate how every governor must regulate - or not - every state. When he was schooled by his legal counsel and advisors, and many GOP senators and representatives as well as Democrats, and a raft of obstreperous governors that he couldn’t get away with that, he flipped over to declaring himself the champion of states’ rights.

He was initially dismissive of the warning intelligence being fed him, and then minimized the emerging outbreak as a non-event. Now of course he is blaming WHO while claiming he has been aggressively responsive from the get-go.

His recent comments about UV disinfectants ranks among the most bizarrely uneducated, flat out stupid, dangerous utterances ever made by a politician. You and poster Prospect defended this nonsense as “out of context” reporting and referenced Trump’s later attempts to minimize the stupidity. But fact is, the issue Trump raised was how disinfecting human bodies - by UV and toxic chemicals - was something he wanted his team to “look into”. When he later said “not by injection” after first including injections of disinfectants as a possibility, he never addressed the full context of his comments, which was: that [dangerously harmful] UV and toxic chemistries should be considered for internal “cleansing.”

You have, correctly, pointed out that anyone who takes those ideas seriously is an ‘effing idiot. Well, yes. I agree. And the world is loaded with ‘effing idiots. You seem to infer that “Darwinism” maybe should cleanse humanity a bit by accepting the demise of any such idiots.

Without weighing in on any value to that inference, let me ask you this:
If those people who have ingested cleaning products since hearing Trump’s comments (would you like links to the cases that have cropped up - and to the reports of Ohio, and NY, and numerous other states that have had surges of calls about this to their poison control centers ... proving the point of how many idiots there are?) - If these people are idiots to listen ... what is the leader who makes the brain-dead suggestion on national tv press conference watched by ten’s of millions of viewers?

Yes, this is the “leader” of the free world.

What is he trying to turn this country into? ... Heh: The Trump Show. And he’s done it.

What are you a “True Believer” of? The Trump Show. Own it.

I can go on.

But back to how this affects Hawaii, which is where I first engaged you over your projections of social upheaval in reaction to the shut down. You appear to grasp now at least somewhat, that, of all other states, Hawaii is pretty much least likely to erupt in open rioting and rebellion. Unique location. Unique melding of cultures apart from the mainland Trump Show. The people of Hawaii, for the most part, are more likely to, and interested in, coming together to support family and community than other parts of the nation. The majority will share and endure together ... in spite of Trump’s chaos and incompetence.
Hi.

Well, then it really doesn’t matter what President Trump has to say or does, you’re an admitted never Trumper. Does supporting President Trump’s conservative policies make me a “Trumper,” then I guess that is what I am according to you. It is settled then. I’m not about to engage in a debate or argument of your platitudes. I’m surprised you haven’t called him a racist, a xenophobe, homophobe, and fascist.

I support Trump because of his actions. He has been the most conservative President since Reagan. Again, I can have that debate and explain my position, but why waste my some with someone who suffers from a case of TDS. It’s not worth it.

I’m sorry, but if anyone including you believes President Trump told people to ingest and inject household cleaning products, I can’t save you or them.

You say what is President Trump trying to turn this nation into. I say what is President Trump trying to turn this nation away from.

I don’t know if people in Hawaii would or would not rebel and riot and neither do you. Like I said, everyone has a breaking point. Maybe people who live in Hawaii has a greater threshold. Who knows. I always thought of our entire nation as a unique melding of many different cultures and races, not just Hawaii. We are a nation of citizens, but we are also a nation that is very diverse and I believe that is a strength. Sadly, we are a nation divided and have been divided for a while and I believe it was done on purpose. Anyway, with that said, I do believe Hawaii is a unique place. It is unique in many different ways and That is why we are moving there, but no place is without their imperfections.
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Old 04-30-2020, 07:15 PM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,117,484 times
Reputation: 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Eight days since the above prediction ... and we have passed the 60,000. More than the Vietnam war.
Yeah, I recall a never Trumper pseudo reporter bring that up at his press briefing Friday. This disgrace asked him if he deserved to be re-elected do to more people dying of C19 in six weeks than died during the Vietnam War. I’m sure Adam Schiff is trying to figure out another way to start up another impeachment hearing. Kinda reminds me, where was Congress when C19 was spreading around the globe? That’s right, they were conducting impeachment hearings against President Trump.
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Old 05-01-2020, 06:44 AM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,117,484 times
Reputation: 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post

Where Trump comes in to this topic is: his phenomenal mismanagement and abuse and incompetence. He tried to declare himself Emperor of America to dictate how every governor must regulate - or not - every state. When he was schooled by his legal counsel and advisors, and many GOP senators and representatives as well as Democrats, and a raft of obstreperous governors that he couldn’t get away with that, he flipped over to declaring himself the champion of states’ rights.
ed with ‘effing idiots. You seem to infer that “Darwinism” maybe should cleanse humanity a bit by accepting the demise of any such idiots.
When did President Trump try to declare himself emperor of the United States? What are you talking about? Also, President Trump never dictated how every governor must regulate. He didn’t shut down a single state. The governors of every state decided to shut down on their own. You claim Trump says he’s an emperor, yet you willfully ignore the tyranny of some of these blue state governors. Thanks to the SCOTUS 1942 decision in Wickard v. Filburn the POTUS does have the power to regulate states if there is an affect on the Commerce Clause. This ruling pretty much made any activity interstate commerce. So if the federal government has the power to stop a farmer to grow and additional 12 acres of wheat for a farmer to feed his cattle rather than buying the extra wheat elsewhere, the federal government nearly has unlimited power. If President Trump wants to open back up states economy, he sure as hell has the power to do so. He also had the power to shut states down. President Trump didn’t do either of the two. He made suggestions and put out guidelines. States made and are making decisions on there own. Federalism died in 1942 and you have the left to thank for that and they have been enjoying that decision for 80 years. Now they don’t seem to like that decision now.

Last edited by Nyfinestbxtf; 05-01-2020 at 07:31 AM..
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Old 05-01-2020, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Juneau, AK + Puna, HI
9,147 posts, read 5,734,611 times
Reputation: 13210
Back on topic please! https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/0...open-thursday/
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Old 05-01-2020, 10:14 AM
 
Location: On the water.
20,741 posts, read 13,723,014 times
Reputation: 18550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf View Post
When did President Trump try to declare himself emperor of the United States? What are you talking about? Also, President Trump never dictated how every governor must regulate. He didn’t shut down a single state. The governors of every state decided to shut down on their own. You claim Trump says he’s an emperor, yet you willfully ignore the tyranny of some of these blue state governors. Thanks to the SCOTUS 1942 decision in Wickard v. Filburn the POTUS does have the power to regulate states if there is an affect on the Commerce Clause. This ruling pretty much made any activity interstate commerce. So if the federal government has the power to stop a farmer to grow and additional 12 acres of wheat for a farmer to feed his cattle rather than buying the extra wheat elsewhere, the federal government nearly has unlimited power. If President Trump wants to open back up states economy, he sure as hell has the power to do so. He also had the power to shut states down. President Trump didn’t do either of the two. He made suggestions and put out guidelines. States made and are making decisions on there own. Federalism died in 1942 and you have the left to thank for that and they have been enjoying that decision for 80 years. Now they don’t seem to like that decision now.
You have, a number of times in this thread, accused others of listening to “fake news” from MSM. Don’t know where you get your news, but my preferences are NPR / PBS and Reuters and AP - all ranked as least biased. Additionally, I find the best path is to survey several sources that also lean left, and right. Develop an overview. For example, I often read The Hill (conservative view, and quite good coverage regardless) and FOX, which can sometimes deliver some fair coverage even while leaning heavily right.

That explained: where the hell do you get your news? Did you not follow the recent faux-pas where your POTUS declared:
Quote:
"The president of the United States calls the shots" in terms of reopening the national economy amid the coronavirus' continued social and economic tear.

"When somebody's the president of the United States, the authority is total," he added.
To which Liz Cheney (among an army of others, left, right, center, libertarian, academics, constitutional scholars, all) informed King Trump:
Quote:
Republican Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming refuted Trump's claims in a tweet, noting, "The federal government does not have absolute power" and then quoted the 10th Amendment.
Here’s a bit more depth:
Quote:
President Trump's authority to unilaterally reopen states' economies was flatly rejected among experts this week after he declared on Monday that he had "total" authority to govern when states would ease coronavirus restrictions.

After receiving bipartisan blowback from his remarks, Trump on Tuesday attempted to backpedal his stance, saying that he would be coordinating with state governors to "authorize" the restart of their respective states' economies.

"I will be speaking to all 50 governors very shortly," Trump said. "And I will then be authorizing each individual governor of each individual state to implement a reopening, very powerful reopening plan of their estate in a time in a manner which is most appropriate."

But governors don't need Trump to authorize their moves to deal with the coronavirus, whether it's keeping schools and businesses largely closed — or saying it's safe to re-open them.

"It's so plain and obvious it's not even debatable," Kathleen Bergin, a professor at Cornell Law School, told NPR's Brian Naylor. "Trump has no authority to ease social distancing, or to open schools or private businesses. These are matters for states to decide under their power to promote public health and welfare, a power guaranteed by the 10th Amendment to the Constitution."
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/14/83464...s-backpedaling

Are you denying Trump said what is on tape? Do you claim the 10th Amendment is bogus?

Your protests, wrapped in your citation of Supreme Court Rulings ‘this and that’ are what’s known in debate science as Sophistry. If you’re not familiar with the term you might want to look it up. The notion that an anonymous internet forum poster can argue constitutional law and theory more correctly than verifiable scholars of the topic ... is a crack up. Sorry bub.


Trump didn’t shut down and dictate because he can’t unilaterally. He tried. And flopped. And then flipped. His M.O.
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