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Old 07-31-2010, 04:54 PM
 
9,518 posts, read 11,478,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
I've worked in medicine for 12 years and have seen over 30000 patients and have worked at the VA, county hospitals, chi chi boutique hospitals, university hospitals...and never once have I heard of anyone getting a non-consensual pelvic exam. For teaching purposes, there are even wonderful women who volunteer their time and allow students to practice in a controlled environment.
I haven't either--sounds like a good money-making lawsuit if it happened.

As far as protection of privacy, most good hospitals and doctors do that as a given. I can remember years ago a urologist at a hospital, when he'd examine males for prostate exams, he'd walk in the room, never close the curtain (the nurse would run to close it) and he'd say "Bend over," in a most rude way, but that was in the late 80's. He was a jerk, but I think patient's rights are a big thing right now and it's to everyone's advantage to respect that. It's legally essential that everyone does and ethically, too.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
25,282 posts, read 30,114,286 times
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If you do not wish to be involved in the process of teaching members of the healing arts, do not go to a teaching hospital. After all, that is their mission --- teaching. No model can ever approach the reality of dealing with warm flesh and blood.

There is a reason for doing an examination under anesthesia on a patient about to have gyn surgery: the anesthetic relaxes the abdominal muscles and makes it much easier to feel the internal organs. The examiner then has the opportunity during the surgery to see a few minutes later what s/he just felt. The concept of "informed consent" is a fairly new one, and most --- I venture to say all --- institutions that train medical students these days will ask a patient for permission before the student does an exam. The examination itself also has an important part in the surgery. It helps the surgeon to be sure that the procedure s/he plans to do is the proper one and that the route used for the surgery is appropriate. For example, is the cyst found on the ultrasound a week ago still there? Is it the same size?

As far as routine examinations are concerned, it is poor medicine to try to listen to someone's heart and lungs or feel of the abdomen through clothing. It cannot be done properly. Perhaps OP would have us adopt the ancient Chinese method: the patient points to the area of the body causing symptoms --- on a doll --- and the physician prescribes without touching the patient or having her undress. See here: Chinese Carved Ivory Medicine Doll Superb (item #887541) . Warning to the modest: doll is nude!

To the medical staff, the human body becomes the focus of their professional attention. A boob is a lump that needs to be evaluated. The female "private parts" are just like those s/he has seen thousands of times before. The best doctors will do their utmost to make a patient comfortable and explain the reason for any examination. Some doctors will be rude, just as some retail clerks will be rude. The likelihood that your gyn doctor has a sexual interest in you is extremely remote.

Now, if you have a really interesting tattoo .......
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Mostly in my head
19,865 posts, read 57,956,152 times
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My local teaching hospital hires people to portray certain symtoms as a patient, to teach students ow/what to ask in a history and for making diagnoses. By the time they get to real patients, the students are pretty familiar with symptoms. They don't do unnecessary things or they risk being thrown out of the program.

To the OP: are you Muslim, Hassidic, or of a religion that practices extreme modesty? I just don't understand you obsession with this topic.

Last edited by SouthernBelleInUtah; 07-31-2010 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:24 PM
 
24 posts, read 179,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah View Post

To the OP: are you Muslim, Hassidic, or of a religion that practices extreme modesty? I just don't understand you obsession with this topic.
There are people of different religious backgrounds who feel strongly about modesty in medical settings. I've heard of atheists, Christians, Jews, and muslims who feel strongly about modesty in medical settings. One atheist's husband was stripped naked for hand surgery. The second time he had surgery on another hand, he was not stripped naked because the wife demanded that this not happen again.

I am a Christian who was puzzled as a kid when I found out my mom went to a male gynecologist. I was taught that you were not supposed to be naked in front of the opposite sex. I didn't get it how it could be okay for a male doctor to see private parts of a woman who he was not married to. I started questioning my mom. She ignored me. But when I grew up as an adult, she started listening to me. She has not been to a male gynecologist in about 11 years. She feels that male gynecologists are indeed wrong now. She said she would have never thought about if it I had not brought it to her attention. When I made a commitment to True Love Waits (to wait to have sex until marriage) as a teenager, I also thought about how I was never going to let another man except for my future husband to see certain parts of my body. A male gynecologist is a man and not morally above other men.

I recently contacted True Love Waits and one of the co-founders agrees with me about male gynecologists being wrong. I also contacted Leslie Ludy who wrote "When God Writes Your Love Story" with her husband 6 years ago. She said that she felt it was a cultural blind spot and that many things the medical industry does violate what God intended. She said that we are taught to not question anything the medical industry does. Leslie Ludy had a midwife deliver two of her babies. As for intimate procedures, I will only go to female doctors/midwives. If I ever have knee or hand surgery, I will not take all of my clothes off and I will demand that they stay on.

I am really upset about how many patients' wishes have been violated in regard to modesty regardless of their religious backgrounds. I think that all modest people should be able to get their wishes in medical settings.

There is honestly no reason for medical students who are going to become cardiologists, ENTs, optometrists, etc. to do pelvic exams on women anyway. They are not going to do pelvic exams on women in their future practices anyway.

There are so many unnecessary pelvic exams done. I found an article by a Mayo Clinic doctor that said that pap smears are often unnecessary for virgin women because cervical cancer is usually caused by HPV (a STD).

You should Google Citizens Against Medical Rape and you will see some horrible pelvic exams that were done on women without their consent. Women have the right to refuse them. Patients can refuse any procedures they don't want period.
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:30 PM
 
24 posts, read 179,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cupcake77 View Post
Silly woman, didn't she realize HER doctor was a medical student once? What makes her situation so special that student can't learn from her vs everyone else?
All women and their husbands have the right to decide who should be present for the birth of their child. There are some women who would be glad to let medical students participate. But my friend had the right to demand who could be there for the C section. What would you think if you could not say no that your neighbors, pastor, teacher, co-workers, etc. could not be present for your birth? Childbirth is supposed to be a joyous time.

My friend was supposed to have a home birth with a midwife, but she ended up having C section because the baby was breech. Many women have chosen to have home births because they feel that there are way too many medical interventions at the hospital. The truth is you have a much higher chance of having a C section at hospital because there are so many medical interventions.

In my mom's case, it was not possible for her to have a baby naturally at all because she has a hip problem. C section is absolutely necessary in some cases.
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Old 07-31-2010, 09:58 PM
 
Location: state of procrastination
3,487 posts, read 6,535,562 times
Reputation: 2891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Modest Woman View Post
There is honestly no reason for medical students who are going to become cardiologists, ENTs, optometrists, etc. to do pelvic exams on women anyway. They are not going to do pelvic exams on women in their future practices anyway.

There are so many unnecessary pelvic exams done. I found an article by a Mayo Clinic doctor that said that pap smears are often unnecessary for virgin women because cervical cancer is usually caused by HPV (a STD).

You should Google Citizens Against Medical Rape and you will see some horrible pelvic exams that were done on women without their consent. Women have the right to refuse them. Patients can refuse any procedures they don't want period.
1) Nope... first of all med students don't know what specialty they want to choose yet, so pelvic exams and delivery is part of their training. Some 10% of them go into ob/gyn, but how would they know if they want to if they don't learn what it involves? What if somebody goes into labor on the side of the road? People who go into non-ob subspecialties still have to do pelvic exams on rare occasions, as much as they try to avoid it. Do you not realize that this is not a glamorous career? But unfortunately they have to be exposed to body parts that are considered by most of us to be foul, disgusting, and smelly... because it is medically necessary. BTW an optometrist is not an MD so they will not need to do pelvics. Cardiologists and ENTs have to go through internal medicine or surgery internships or residencies, so they by all means need to know pelvic exams.

2) Few doctors do pap smears on virgins... if they do they are idiots, but this is not malpractice.

3) If it was really medical rape they should just report it to the police and have the doctor arrested.

4) If a woman doctor sees your private parts and inserts her fingers into your privates, does it mean that you are being violated by a LESBIAN ACT? Maybe the best solution is not to see a doctor at all!

BTW I just looked at that website "Citizens against medical rape in action". It does make a good point for doctors to be more careful about how they do the consent, but 99% of it is pretty subjective, and some stories were even ridiculous. I have personally witnessed patients being given informed consent by doctors BEFORE they were "drugged", and re-introduced to residents and another attending who were reassigned to do their procedure. They were fine with the switch before they were drugged. Then after the procedure they became angry and had all sorts of complaints about everything under the sun... in retrospect. I don't know if it was due to poor memory from the drugs or if they are just generally unhappy with the service... but it is a total load of crap that nobody needs to deal with.

Also, there is no such thing as "ghost research". Researchers can take DE-IDENTIFIED data from any patient they want, as long as they obtain approval from the hospital's IRB committee. This committee makes sure that the identity of the patient is dissociated with the medical data. It is in the name of medical knowledge and poses little risk to patients.

I seriously think the people who care so much about these issues should carry around their OWN set of consent forms stating exactly what they forbid. If your demands are harsh enough, you will probably be refused by training institutions. The reason is not because the doctors are mean and want to refuse service. It's just that given the structure of how each service is run, they will not be able to accommodate all your wishes as the services are run by many trainees supervised by one attending physician at the top. You are not going to be able to get special services from the attending all the time... it's simply ridiculous and selfish for one person to demand so much from a system. Go to a private hospital and you will be much happier there.

The idea of a "gang bang" pelvic exam is just ridiculous. There aren't even 8-9 people in the OR. :P

I am just thankful that I don't have to deal with patients in my profession! It sounds like a dangerous minefield.

Last edited by miyu; 07-31-2010 at 10:56 PM..
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:42 AM
 
3,627 posts, read 13,145,609 times
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Modest Woman

Just communicate to your medical staff this is a religious issue for you and I am sure they will do what they can to accomodate it....Just like they do for folks who won't take blood etc. But do expect that this may limit your options.

Health care is already expensive and asking society to spend extra money to meet EVERYONE's unique needs is not reasonable because medical expenses are shared among society.

Personally, I AM a Christian and don't see gynecological exams to be a sexual event and don't have the same beliefs that you do about modesty. This is just not sexual anymore than changing a diaper is on a baby. This may be a religious preference for you but please do not assume that all Christians share your particular viewpoint.

I felt bad for my father as he was dying and I had to help him in such a way that I did see his "maleness" and I know his main issue was not his nakedness but his dependance. It was awkward but I can assure that wiping an old man's butt was not sexual for either one of us but rather an act of caring.

I have also used both male and female gynecologists and think I prefer the males I have used because they have been gentler. My primary care doctor is a woman because I got good references on her and realy like her. But it is no big deal either way.
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Old 08-01-2010, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Texas
44,246 posts, read 54,901,522 times
Reputation: 73244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Modest Woman View Post

When I made a commitment to True Love Waits (to wait to have sex until marriage) as a teenager, I also thought about how I was never going to let another man except for my future husband to see certain parts of my body. A male gynecologist is a man and not morally above other men.

There is honestly no reason for medical students who are going to become cardiologists, ENTs, optometrists, etc. to do pelvic exams on women anyway. They are not going to do pelvic exams on women in their future practices anyway.

There are so many unnecessary pelvic exams done. I found an article by a Mayo Clinic doctor that said that pap smears are often unnecessary for virgin women because cervical cancer is usually caused by HPV (a STD).

Women have the right to refuse them. Patients can refuse any procedures they don't want period.
All patients have the right to refuse any treatment or exam they want. Period. So no one is being forced to do anything.

Your statements highlight your complete ignorance of the entire medical system, medical education system, medicine, physiology, and the entire disease process. Since it's unlikely you are willing to change your mind or listen to reason about how medicine and biology work, I won't go into why several statements made here are just completely wrong. There are several really wrong statements here that only exist, I imagine, to further your argument.
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:35 AM
 
9,412 posts, read 12,103,200 times
Reputation: 20237
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
All patients have the right to refuse any treatment or exam they want. Period. So no one is being forced to do anything.

Your statements highlight your complete ignorance of the entire medical system, medical education system, medicine, physiology, and the entire disease process. Since it's unlikely you are willing to change your mind or listen to reason about how medicine and biology work, I won't go into why several statements made here are just completely wrong. There are several really wrong statements here that only exist, I imagine, to further your argument.
Excellent post stan4. The OPs obsession with and complete ignorance of the medical system is the reason I stopped posting anything to refute her claims.

Patient's like her are a nightmare for us, because in the end nothing you do makes them feel better and they are always after blood so they will find fault with EVERYTHING.

Just don't come to my ED
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:31 AM
 
Location: The Big D
14,874 posts, read 38,080,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggi07 View Post
If people are working to save your life quickly, you do not care a bit about modesty.


I was rushed to the ER back in March when I had an allegic reaction to an antibiotic for a sinus infection. I'm also an asthmatic. We were actually in the car when it happened and I pointed to the "H" on the highway exit sign as I could not even talk and my husband looked at me and FLEW me there. I walked in but a nurse looked at me and grabbed me and lead me back to the ER. I was not even in a room or behind a curtain and they were already stripping me getting things going and there were several tech's, nurses and about a half a dozen EMT's around and I could have cared less. Heck, they could have stripped me naked for all I cared as long as they saved me. When you can not breathe and your that close to your entire airway closing up....... WHO CARES!

I had a breast mass removed the other day. The surgeon came in ahead of time and with my husband sitting there and me still wide awake we marked which breast the mass was on. He could have colored on my boobie in all different colors of sharpie's as long as it helped him to make sure he operated on the right one. WHAT!!! WAIT!! Oh my dear, I had my boobie exposed in the OR and I was totally knocked out. I don't know who all saw my boobie. LOL!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Modest Woman View Post
[b]I am a Christian who was puzzled as a kid when I found out my mom went to a male gynecologist. I was taught that you were not supposed to be naked in front of the opposite sex. I didn't get it how it could be okay for a male doctor to see private parts of a woman who he was not married to. I started questioning my mom. She ignored me. But when I grew up as an adult, she started listening to me. She has not been to a male gynecologist in about 11 years. She feels that male gynecologists are indeed wrong now. She said she would have never thought about if it I had not brought it to her attention. When I made a commitment to True Love Waits (to wait to have sex until marriage) as a teenager, I also thought about how I was never going to let another man except for my future husband to see certain parts of my body. A male gynecologist is a man and not morally above other men.

I recently contacted True Love Waits and one of the co-founders agrees with me about male gynecologists being wrong. .
OH MY LORD!!!!
Let me tell you what. A male gyno deliverd my first daughter and he was EXCELLENT! I thoroughly enjoyed his demeanor in the delivery room and he kept the family informed out in the waiting room. When I had my second I got a female.......... SHE RODE IN ON A BROOM! She in her inept ways almost lost my daughter. I should have had an emergency c-section when they lost her heartbeat and my blood pressure spiked. Thankfully, God was watching out for us and the baby was fine. HOWEVER, she did a botch job on my stitches for me episiotomy I still live with that. My current gyno is a male and he is a sweetheart. He has been with me thru a miscarriage and other issues. He is wise beyond years. I would not trade him for anyone. There is nothing sexual at all about having a male gyno.

I want the doctors that are going to help me to be the best mom and wife and person that I can and to be with my family for as long as I can. God gave these men (and women) the wisdom to be the best surgeons and doctors that they are and I'm not about to discriminate against one of His creatures that He has given such a talent to that is using it to help mankind.
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