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What you can't prove is your statement about rates of "arthritis, dementia, etc" being "lower than today"
Nonsense...ALL of the diseases we see in the elderly population were around in the 19th and early 20th centuries but not as well studied, diagnosed or reported as they are today.
As another poster has already pointed out you really need to make up your mind on your "theories" though...
To state in one sentence "try and find evidence that increase in lifespans has anything to do with the medical interventions, you won't"
And in the very next sentence to state the role of vaccines and antibiotics is just embarrassing
Oh, and about those "traditional rural societies"
Aboriginal life expectancy is more than 10 years below that of the average non-Aboriginal Australian.
You are much too emotionally involved in this subject to have a rational conversation. How the heck would you know if arthritis, dementia, etc., have not increased? You don't know.
And obviously I know that vaccines and antibiotics are interventions. But they have mostly increased life expectancy at birth. And they have been around a long time.
Aborignals having shorter lives is probably explained by poverty. And it's only 10 years less.
You are too hysterical about this to think carefully.
Diseases that are now attributed to normal aging, or to genetics, are actually diseases of modern industrial societies. They are caused mainly by lifestyle.
For example, type 2 diabetes has been increasing dramatically. Do you really deny this? Do you really insist that it occurred at the same rate 100 years ago? Do you really think it can be explained by our "healthier and longer" lives?
You are much too emotionally involved in this subject to have a rational conversation. How the heck would you know if arthritis, dementia, etc., have not increased? You don't know.
And obviously I know that vaccines and antibiotics are interventions. But they have mostly increased life expectancy at birth. And they have been around a long time.
Aborignals having shorter lives is probably explained by poverty. And it's only 10 years less.
You are too hysterical about this to think carefully.
I am anything BUT hysterical (other than laughing at your posts)
It is impossible to have a "rational" conversation because your posts are completely IRRATIONAL
You make up "facts" constantly to support your inane hypotheses....
How the heck would I know arthritis, dementia etc have NOT increased....
Lets turn that one around shall we? YOU presented it as "fact" that those diseases HAVE increased...where is YOUR PROOF???? YOU DON'T KNOW....but you presented it as a "known fact"
How could vaccines and antibiotics increase "life expectancy" AT BIRTH....think about what you just typed and get back to me on THAT doozy....
You posted AS FACT that "rural populations" live as long or longer than Western civilized populations...
I gave you ACTUAL FACTS regarding 2 "rural populations" that have significantly LOWER life spans than their industrialized cousins...
And no, you don't just get to state "its probably explained by poverty" PROVE IT or DON'T STATE IT....its that simple.
ONLY 10 years less.....that comment doesn't even require elaboration on my part.....
I will contest what you wrote that I outlined in black..
We used to have a very firm mattress because it was my belief that firm was healthier for your spine. I used to ride horses and had a few falls and injuries that resulted in a degenerated disk with arthritis. I also had a bad case of sciatica that used to pain me especially on longer car rides/trips.
I used to wake up EVERY SINGLE MORNING with a sore back.
It bothered me a lot through the day. Chiropractors and massage therapy didn't help. I just accepted that I was going to be in pain for the rest of my life and there was no help for me other than taking over the counter arthritis/pain relief pills. .
When I was away at a friend's cottage on our yearly women's get-away, I slept on an old soft mattress that I sank into.The first time I laid on it, I thought, "oh boy, am I ever going to be sore in the morning" It actually took me two mornings to realize that my back wasn't sore when I got up. I was VERY surprised considering how soft the mattress was.
Not too long after Tempur-Pedic mattresses came out and were so highly recommended, we needed a replacement and decided to try one. It was the BEST decision we've ever made for a mattress. We ended up taking it to our cottage, have one in our travel trailer and ordered a Temper-Pedic king "cloud" for our bedroom at home.
I have now been pain free for years and I know it's BECAUSE of the mattress. Also, I'm happy to say that my sciatica has almost totally cleared up. It only bothers me once in a while, compared to every day, all day.
No answer from the OP. I guess he found out he couldn't contest what I wrote.
And do you really think the toxins we are increasingly exposed to in the air, water and food have no effect on health? We are really getting healthier and healthier, in spite of that?
Cancer, dementia, autoimmune disorders, etc., are unrelated to the environment? They have nothing to do with our modern lifestyle or the toxic environment? It's all because we are healthier and live longer?
You can find times and places where people were poor and undernourished, and did not live as long as we do now.
You can also find times and places where people were not poor and starving, where the air and water was clean, and where adult life expectancy was comparable to ours. And where the modern "diseases of aging" were rare.
[quote=Hollytree;50039216]Lie expectancy at birth is not the same as life expectancy for adults.
Many people in 1840 lived long lives- they did not drop like flies at 45! Even the bible says people will live to 3 score and ten- that's 70 in biblical times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
And do you really think the toxins we are increasingly exposed to in the air, water and food have no effect on health? We are really getting healthier and healthier, in spite of that?
Cancer, dementia, autoimmune disorders, etc., are unrelated to the environment? They have nothing to do with our modern lifestyle or the toxic environment? It's all because we are healthier and live longer?
Of course some, perhaps even a lot of our ailments are due to environmental toxins and the way we eat. No one disputed that. You are making this black and white, you either believe lifestyle and the environment impact health OR modern medicine, but most rational people can see quite clearly it's BOTH.
It is utter nonsense to claim medical advances don't save lives and enable people with disease to live longer. It would also be utter nonsense to claim the environment has no bearing on health. No one but you are making the stand for one of these factors only. It is true that breast cancer rates are higher than they used to be and we don't know why, and environmental toxins whether in the air, water or sprayed on our food are likely suspects...but it is also true that people with breast cancer have survival rates much, much, higher than in the past because of medical advances.
Aside from that, the fact that environment and toxins and poor eating have resulted in increased rates of Diabetes, Asthma and other diseases does not also make it true that expensive mattresses and shoes are responsible for people developing arthritis. I do not accept this, and my family history as my 18 years in Geriatric rehab do not reflect your statements as true.
You try to deflect onto other areas and give examples that have nothing to do with what your argument started out to be when you have no way to back up your claims, it seems. You seem to feel that if one disease has causation links to environment or lifestyle, all of them do. You seem to feel those of us who go to doctors and use science-based medical care don't also exercise and eat chia seeds and use visualization for pain relief. Ideally, health care is a blend of these worlds, it doesn't benefit anyone to choose one and ignore the other.
People were not dying in their 50's, everywhere, in non-industrial societies. That is a myth.
High infant mortality is natural in most species, but has been reduce to almost zero, possibly because of antibiotics and vaccines.
Saying people used to live until 30, or 40, or 50, is just not true. Maybe in some poverty-stricken areas, but not in general.
Most older Americans are NOT being kept alive by medical interventions. That is a myth, mostly promoted by the drug industry.
You do realize that historically a HUGE percentage of the population was poor? Right? I mean you are up on your history from medieval, renaissance and all that.....
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.....that comment doesn't even require elaboration on my part.....
