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Old 05-28-2018, 09:55 PM
 
8,174 posts, read 3,371,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
People fail by not restricting calories...yes. People also fail by not exercising. And people fail by not doing either. People fail A LOT at losing weight. THAT is why they are given drugs.

Do you want people to prove the efforts they've made before they are given drugs? Doctors can lead horses to water but can't make them drink. Watching your diet and moving more require effort - some people do not or cannot do what is necessary or all that is necessary. If we want to morally judge people before we allow them "the easy" way (or medically necessary way, in their case) of taking drugs then you'll have to help set up this system.

Shaming people is seldom effective - get creative and share your ideas, please.
You missed the whole point of what I said. People fail at dieting because it's a bad idea and they should not be doing it. But that's what MDs recommend.

Why not try what might be a better approach. I mentioned the post before SuzyQ's, by someone who lost weight without dieting, just by becoming active doing things they like.

Why not consider the possibility that all you have to do is avoid processed food and become active? Maybe it won't work for every single person who tries it, but maybe it will work for most.

Why not consider the possibility that the medical profession is giving patients bad advice by telling them to restrict calories?

It slows the metabolism, so if you stop restricting calories you go back to being overweight. It makes you weak so you don't feel like exercising.

Overweight patients fail at losing weight because of the bad medical advice. But that's great for the drug companies.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,973 posts, read 40,928,564 times
Reputation: 44899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Maybe you could read the post right above yours. They lost 35 pounds without dieting, just by being active and doing outside work.

Maybe you could listen to what people say about exercise and weight loss, instead of only believing the "experts."

Creating a calorie deficit makes you hungry, and when you are hungry you want to eat. When you are hungry you feel weak and you don't want to exercise. And the metabolism slows, so you have to eat even less.

It is an unfortunate myth that you must create a calorie deficit to lose weight, and it is harming millions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
You missed the whole point of what I said. People fail at dieting because it's a bad idea and they should not be doing it. But that's what MDs recommend.

Why not try what might be a better approach. I mentioned the post before SuzyQ's, by someone who lost weight without dieting, just by becoming active doing things they like.

Why not consider the possibility that all you have to do is avoid processed food and become active? Maybe it won't work for every single person who tries it, but maybe it will work for most.

Why not consider the possibility that the medical profession is giving patients bad advice by telling them to restrict calories?

It slows the metabolism, so if you stop restricting calories you go back to being overweight. It makes you weak so you don't feel like exercising.

Overweight patients fail at losing weight because of the bad medical advice. But that's great for the drug companies.
Morrison burned more calories than he consumed. Therefore, he lost weight without changing his diet.

However, what he describes is heavy physical work, and an amount of exercise that the average person is not going to take on.

I would appreciate your enlightening us on how a person can lose weight without creating a calorie deficit.

By the way, why is avoiding processed food not dieting?

Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds - CNN.com

"For 10 weeks, Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, ate one of these sugary cakelets every three hours, instead of meals. To add variety in his steady stream of Hostess and Little Debbie snacks, Haub munched on Doritos chips, sugary cereals and Oreos, too.

His premise: That in weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most -- not the nutritional value of the food.

The premise held up: On his "convenience store diet," he shed 27 pounds in two months.

For a class project, Haub limited himself to less than 1,800 calories a day. A man of Haub's pre-dieting size usually consumes about 2,600 calories daily. So he followed a basic principle of weight loss: He consumed significantly fewer calories than he burned."

"Two-thirds of his total intake came from junk food. He also took a multivitamin pill and drank a protein shake daily. And he ate vegetables, typically a can of green beans or three to four celery stalks."
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Middle of the valley
48,292 posts, read 34,425,363 times
Reputation: 73226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
You missed the whole point of what I said. People fail at dieting because it's a bad idea and they should not be doing it. But that's what MDs recommend.

Why not try what might be a better approach. I mentioned the post before SuzyQ's, by someone who lost weight without dieting, just by becoming active doing things they like.

Why not consider the possibility that all you have to do is avoid processed food and become active? Maybe it won't work for every single person who tries it, but maybe it will work for most.

Why not consider the possibility that the medical profession is giving patients bad advice by telling them to restrict calories?

It slows the metabolism, so if you stop restricting calories you go back to being overweight. It makes you weak so you don't feel like exercising.

Overweight patients fail at losing weight because of the bad medical advice. But that's great for the drug companies.

That's so overly simplistic, it's hard to know where to start.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Middle of the valley
48,292 posts, read 34,425,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
It is very common, obviously, or more people would be doing it. I said it is not NATURAL to dislike exercise, I didn't say it is not common. And I gave a reasonable explanation of why it is common to dislike it.
I disagree totally. People have never exercised just to exercise "naturally" (some but very few). We were more active in order to survive. Our whole civilization evolved with the goal of working less hard (strenuously) and maintaining quality of life (food, shelter, etc.).

If I leave my dogs alone, they sleep. They'll get up and play for a bit, but not enough to keep the pounds off the older dog, he must be "exercised".... which he hates.

Same with horses. They will play and frolic a bit, but there whole goal is not to expend energy as much as possible. Thus barn sour horses, and ones who try very hard not to go into the arena.

There is nothing natural about exercise for the sake of exercise. It's not like our ancestors hunted down a mastadon, ate dinner and said "let's go running!!!"

Which is what leads to our becoming over weight. We no longer need to expend large amounts of energy for survival and food is available in vast quantities. It is "natural" for us to become sedentary and fat.

We actually have to "make up" physical activity to burn calories and maintain our bodies.

There is nothing naturally occurring in my day that causes me to burn lots of calories and amp up my cardio. Not cleaning the house, doing yard work, or walking the dogs. I need to go out with the explicit intention of using my body physically and pushing my physical limits.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:01 AM
 
8,174 posts, read 3,371,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
I disagree totally. People have never exercised just to exercise "naturally" (some but very few). We were more active in order to survive. Our whole civilization evolved with the goal of working less hard (strenuously) and maintaining quality of life (food, shelter, etc.).

If I leave my dogs alone, they sleep. They'll get up and play for a bit, but not enough to keep the pounds off the older dog, he must be "exercised".... which he hates.

Same with horses. They will play and frolic a bit, but there whole goal is not to expend energy as much as possible. Thus barn sour horses, and ones who try very hard not to go into the arena.

There is nothing natural about exercise for the sake of exercise. It's not like our ancestors hunted down a mastadon, ate dinner and said "let's go running!!!"

Which is what leads to our becoming over weight. We no longer need to expend large amounts of energy for survival and food is available in vast quantities. It is "natural" for us to become sedentary and fat.

We actually have to "make up" physical activity to burn calories and maintain our bodies.

There is nothing naturally occurring in my day that causes me to burn lots of calories and amp up my cardio. Not cleaning the house, doing yard work, or walking the dogs. I need to go out with the explicit intention of using my body physically and pushing my physical limits.
First of all, you have ignored all my comments about dancing. It is found in all cultures. It is moving just for the pleasure of moving along with music.

I do agree with you that some amount of laziness is natural. It's easier to ride than to walk, and there is a part of us that automatically does what is easier.

And yes, we do have to make a conscious effort now and remember to exercise.

However, it is also true that many people love exercise. If you find something you really like, you will love doing it. There is real pleasure in moving the muscles and breathing deeply.

But exercise that is too strenuous is not pleasant, you have to force yourself to do it. That's why I don't bother with weight lifting, although maybe I should.

If the general public understood that exercise can be fun if you find what you like, maybe they would be more open to it. If they understood that you don't have to do anything that makes you tired, or that causes pain, they might try.

And if the general public understood that it is absolutely necessary for health, they might make the effort. We have been taught by the medical industry that modern medicine has made us healthier than ever, and that we can count on drugs to give us long happy lives. It is not true. Drugs are needed sometimes, but they will not prevent disease or restore health once it has been lost.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:04 AM
 
8,174 posts, read 3,371,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
That's so overly simplistic, it's hard to know where to start.
I am not writing a thousand page book here, so it has to be simplified. I am sure there is truth in what I said. If you think it's wrong, you could specify why.

The metabolic system is extremely complex and not well understood. Our body tells us how much to eat, when the system is in balance. It is NOT simply a matter of calories. Restricting calories will help to disrupt the balance that already was disrupted.

An overweight person needs to get back in balance, so their body tells them how much to eat and they don't have to count calories.

You get back in balance by avoiding refined sugar, and other processed food, and by getting exercise. It is a gradual process.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:09 AM
 
8,174 posts, read 3,371,050 times
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Also, I have seen dogs behave very differently than what you described, when they have other dogs to run with.

Animals can be conditioned into extreme laziness just like we can.

And maybe you don't remember being a child. We loved to run around outside, we loved being physically active.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Central IL
20,726 posts, read 16,203,793 times
Reputation: 50367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Also, I have seen dogs behave very differently than what you described, when they have other dogs to run with.

Animals can be conditioned into extreme laziness just like we can.

And maybe you don't remember being a child. We loved to run around outside, we loved being physically active.
And again...what do you suggest we all do? Actually, it's obvious what you want people to do - the question is, how do you suggest we get people to do it? Offer some practical solutions.
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,973 posts, read 40,928,564 times
Reputation: 44899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
I am not writing a thousand page book here, so it has to be simplified. I am sure there is truth in what I said. If you think it's wrong, you could specify why.

The metabolic system is extremely complex and not well understood. Our body tells us how much to eat, when the system is in balance. It is NOT simply a matter of calories. Restricting calories will help to disrupt the balance that already was disrupted.

An overweight person needs to get back in balance, so their body tells them how much to eat and they don't have to count calories.

You get back in balance by avoiding refined sugar, and other processed food, and by getting exercise. It is a gradual process.
The only way to lose weight is by creating a calorie deficit. That means either eating less (of everything) or exercising or both. Did you read the story about the nutrition professor who lost weight while eating mostly junk food?

Most people will not commit enough time to lose weight solely with exercise. Many people will do it by reducing food intake without changing their activity.

The best way to lose weight is a combination of diet and exercise.

Physicians tell patients to diet and exercise and patients just do not do it.

I will echo renee's question: how do you get someone who will not exercise to do it? Should they be told, "No medication for you. Just exercise."?
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:07 PM
 
8,174 posts, read 3,371,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The only way to lose weight is by creating a calorie deficit. That means either eating less (of everything) or exercising or both. Did you read the story about the nutrition professor who lost weight while eating mostly junk food?
Your link didn't work, but anyway -- yes of course you can lose weight by restricting calories! But it is not usually permanent. As I keep saying, the metabolism slows. Also, muscle is lost, not just fat. That kind of dieting can lead to obesity. It is pretty well known, I think.

If the metabolic system is in balance, we only eat as much as we need. Processed food and inactivity can disrupt the balance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Most people will not commit enough time to lose weight solely with exercise. Many people will do it by reducing food intake without changing their activity.

The best way to lose weight is a combination of diet and exercise.

Physicians tell patients to diet and exercise and patients just do not do it.

I will echo renee's question: how do you get someone who will not exercise to do it? Should they be told, "No medication for you. Just exercise."?
I have already explained, and explained, that. If people understood all the facts, they would exercise. Instead, they are given a choice between lifestyle improvement and drugs. One is hard, the other is easy, they take the easy one.

They do not understand that lifestyle improvement can cure metabolic syndrome completely, while drugs cannot. The two options are not at all equivalent.

People also need to understand that hating exercise results mostly from being out of the habit. The muscles are weak and exercise is hard work, when you aren't used to it.

Exercise can make you feel good, physically and mentally. Drugs, in general, do not. There certainly is a lot of benefit in feeling good. Even if someone doesn't care about living to 90, they probably want to function well as long as possible.

If a 65 year old woman is overweight and never exercises, and is taking antidepressants, for example, maybe it's because she does not understand the situation. Maybe her MD has not explained that her depression could be related to being out of shape physically. Maybe she could be told that even walking the dog 15 minutes a day might help her get off anti-depressants. Maybe she could be told that antidepressants might cause long term damage, no one really knows.
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