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Old 01-13-2020, 12:40 PM
 
624 posts, read 405,380 times
Reputation: 452

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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Taking exogenous testosterone increases your risk of arteriosclerosis and serve as fertilizer for prostate ca. You may "feel better" taking it, but that's placebo effect. Testosterone has nothing to do with "energy metabolism" but it can cause aggressive personality.


There's no such thing as high normal vs low normal. Normal is normal-- like a home run-- it makes no difference how far over the fence the ball goes. Have a semen analysis-- if the sperm count is normal you do not need testosterone. Period.


First rule of medicine is Do No Harm. ...Second is Treat the Patient, Not the Lab Value.
I don't believe that the research agrees with your claims.

"there are no data suggesting that testosterone supplementation into the normal physiological range leads to an increased risk of developing prostate cancer."

"multiple logistic regression analysis has shown that differences in behavioural profiles do not account for the excess burden of coronary disease in men.2, 26 The development and progression of coronary atherosclerosis is heavily influenced by the interaction of multiple risk factors."

[url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720171/[/url]


increasing evidence suggests that the process of atherosclerosis is beneficially modulated by testosterone.

[url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19011291[/url]
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Old Yesterday, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Retired
687 posts, read 529,139 times
Reputation: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by DK736 View Post
Both my Ancestry health report, and the multiple testings I did with my doctor shows my levels are very low. My sister is an APRN and has worked alongside my doctor and speaks very highly of her. I showed her the test results, and she too said to move forward with using the gel for therapy treatment. Some people don't get the same side effects, or even all of them for that matter. So far, the only side affect I have is urinating more frequently. I am also being monitored with usage and was told treatment would cease immediately if results don't improve, or if a new issues arises when I go for a follow up.
What is your free testosterone level? Is it really that low? If your doctor did not test for free testosterone, you have a bad doctor. What is your estrogen level after taking testosterone? If your doctor does not test for this, you have a bad doctor. Since you are using a gel instead of getting shots, you have a bad doctor.
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Old Yesterday, 03:37 AM
 
Location: Retired
687 posts, read 529,139 times
Reputation: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
I don't believe that the research agrees with your claims.

"there are no data suggesting that testosterone supplementation into the normal physiological range leads to an increased risk of developing prostate cancer."

"multiple logistic regression analysis has shown that differences in behavioural profiles do not account for the excess burden of coronary disease in men.2, 26 The development and progression of coronary atherosclerosis is heavily influenced by the interaction of multiple risk factors."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3720171/


increasing evidence suggests that the process of atherosclerosis is beneficially modulated by testosterone.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19011291

From your second link, which is an article voicing an opinion, not a study:
"A recently published meta-analysis of 19 prospective studies40 investigated some of the previously found heterogeneity in the results and design of studies in this area. Although the analysis failed to confirm that low testosterone increases the risk of cardiovascular disease in middle aged men, it did find a significant inverse association between testosterone and coronary disease in men older than 70 years.

"Whether low testosterone is a ‘cause or consequence' of coronary disease remains unknown. There appears to be evidence supporting both sides of this controversy. It is of course possible that it plays a causative role and is also a consequence of illness and frailty. A great deal of research work will be needed to carefully untangle all the possible mechanisms underlying this relationship.

"In men with prostate cancer, testosterone therapy is clearly contra-indicated and lower levels of testosterone are beneficial. However, to our knowledge, there is no evidence supporting a causative role of testosterone supplementation on the levels in the physiological normal range, with the risk of developing prostate cancer. In fact, in view of the data concerning low testosterone and increased mortality, it has even been suggested that testosterone suppressive therapy could be withheld from elderly men with T1 to T2 localized prostate cancer due to reduced survival.98 Any future trials looking at the effects of chronic testosterone therapy in patients with coronary disease should monitor the effects on prostate-specific antigen and look for any deleterious effects on the prostate gland."

That article from 2012 is basically someone's opinion of a meta study,
As often occurs in science, other studies disagree with the article you linked. Here is a summary of mainstream medicines opinion of TRT:
https://www.webmd.com/men/replacement-therapy

"Are there risks to testosterone replacement therapy?
Yes. TRT has side effects, which may include:

Acne and oily skin
Lower sperm count, which can cause infertility
Increased risk of blood clots
Shrinkage of the testicles
Larger breasts
Increased risk of heart attack and stroke
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Old Yesterday, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Retired
687 posts, read 529,139 times
Reputation: 1098
No one should go on TRT if they might want to father children in the future. Growing male t*ts is a risk, and shrinking testicles is a reality. But as certain body builders put it, shrinking your balls is good, because it makes your penis look larger. (Rich Piana r.i.p.).
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Old Yesterday, 07:42 AM
 
624 posts, read 405,380 times
Reputation: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graywhiskers View Post
From your second link, which is an article voicing an opinion, not a study:
"A recently published meta-analysis of 19 prospective studies40 investigated some of the previously found heterogeneity in the results and design of studies in this area. Although the analysis failed to confirm that low testosterone increases the risk of cardiovascular disease in middle aged men, it did find a significant inverse association between testosterone and coronary disease in men older than 70 years.
Yes, it is a link talking about the study which is linked in the article. Did you not even look at the conclusion of the ACTUAL study?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21177660
"The systematic review displayed no association between endogenous testosterone and risk for CVD in middle-aged men."

Quote:
"Whether low testosterone is a ‘cause or consequence' of coronary disease remains unknown. There appears to be evidence supporting both sides of this controversy. It is of course possible that it plays a causative role and is also a consequence of illness and frailty. A great deal of research work will be needed to carefully untangle all the possible mechanisms underlying this relationship.
The claim above is whether testosterone therapy causes CVD. You pointed out a paragraph talking about low testosterone. LOL

Quote:
"In men with prostate cancer, testosterone therapy is clearly contra-indicated and lower levels of testosterone are beneficial. However, to our knowledge, there is no evidence supporting a causative role of testosterone supplementation on the levels in the physiological normal range, with the risk of developing prostate cancer. In fact, in view of the data concerning low testosterone and increased mortality, it has even been suggested that testosterone suppressive therapy could be withheld from elderly men with T1 to T2 localized prostate cancer due to reduced survival.98 Any future trials looking at the effects of chronic testosterone therapy in patients with coronary disease should monitor the effects on prostate-specific antigen and look for any deleterious effects on the prostate gland."
Ok, so there is no evidence of testosterone supplementation with risk of developing prostate cancer. Thanks, you are pointing out what I'm saying.

Quote:
As often occurs in science, other studies disagree with the article you linked. Here is a summary of mainstream medicines opinion of TRT:
https://www.webmd.com/men/replacement-therapy
MY GOD do you even READ what you linked? You posted an article about Guidelines from the Endocrine Society say you should not have TRT if you have prostate cancer or breast cancer.

We are not talking about people who ALREADY HAVE PROSTATE CANCER!!! How about showing evidence that testosterone therapy causes prostate cancer and CVD in healthy men?

How about linking REAL studies like these?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18230794
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17514649
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14648709

Quote:
"Are there risks to testosterone replacement therapy?
Yes. TRT has side effects, which may include:

Acne and oily skin
Lower sperm count, which can cause infertility
Increased risk of blood clots
Shrinkage of the testicles
Larger breasts
Increased risk of heart attack and stroke
My medication has a risk of death. Does that mean I should not take my medication?

Last edited by Diesel350z; Yesterday at 08:33 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Connecticut
992 posts, read 225,435 times
Reputation: 1061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graywhiskers View Post
No one should go on TRT if they might want to father children in the future. Growing male t*ts is a risk, and shrinking testicles is a reality. But as certain body builders put it, shrinking your balls is good, because it makes your penis look larger. (Rich Piana r.i.p.).



I already have man boobs from being overweight. And according to the research I have done, as well as what my doctor said, low testosterone is also a factor in that. Also, your testicles can shrink from low testosterone as well.




From the article I provided (link below):



4. Reduction in testicle size

A male with low testosterone may notice a reduction in the size of their testicles that is not related to cold temperatures.
The ******* may also feel softer than usual.




11. An increase in body fat

A reduction in testosterone can lead to an increase in body fat.
In some cases, men with a deficiency of the hormone develop gynecomastia, which causes an enlargement of the breasts




https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...s-and-symptoms
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Old Yesterday, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Connecticut
992 posts, read 225,435 times
Reputation: 1061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
Yes, it is a link talking about the study which is linked in the article. Did you not even look at the conclusion of the ACTUAL study?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21177660
"The systematic review displayed no association between endogenous testosterone and risk for CVD in middle-aged men."

The claim above is whether testosterone therapy causes CVD. You pointed out a paragraph talking about low testosterone. LOL

Ok, so there is no evidence of testosterone supplementation with risk of developing prostate cancer. Thanks, you are pointing out what I'm saying.


MY GOD do you even READ what you linked? You posted an article about Guidelines from the Endocrine Society say you should not have TRT if you have prostate cancer or breast cancer.

We are not talking about people who ALREADY HAVE PROSTATE CANCER!!! How about showing evidence that testosterone therapy causes prostate cancer and CVD in healthy men?

How about linking REAL studies like these?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18230794
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17514649
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14648709



Thank you for your input. I stopped reading the articles from his links when I noticed this was for men with prostate cancer. I do not have prostate cancer, or any type of cancer for that matter.
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Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
1,994 posts, read 1,963,924 times
Reputation: 1602
My son had low levels as a young adolescent, and he was prescribed injections just to give him a boost as he had very little facial hair, etc. This was from a pediatric endocrinologist. He and I decoded not to continue as, have others have said, your testicles will shrink as the body adjusts to not needing to produce it on its own. Hie level is probably still low but we are not going to mess with it.
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Old Yesterday, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Retired
687 posts, read 529,139 times
Reputation: 1098
Total nonsense Diesel. I was only referencing YOUR article, at the link you provided. It had a lot of caveats, it does not give testosterone supplementation a clean bill of health regarding heart disease. It stated there was no benefit to middle age men. Possibly for over 70. More studies required, and so on. I read the articles You provided.

I can throw studies back at you, but it would be a waste of time. I only linked the webmd summary of TRT side effects. IT DID NOT ONLY ADDRESS men with prostate cancer. If you feel YOUR referenced article did, then apologize. I never linked any study besides your link. You throw out straw man arguments. I linked the webmd article, the other link is YOURS. Don't you even recognize your own provided article?



Again:
"Are there risks to testosterone replacement therapy?
Yes. TRT has side effects, which may include:

Acne and oily skin
Lower sperm count, which can cause infertility
Increased risk of blood clots
Shrinkage of the testicles
Larger breasts
Increased risk of heart attack and stroke

Last edited by Graywhiskers; Yesterday at 03:50 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Retired
687 posts, read 529,139 times
Reputation: 1098
Fat creates excess estrogen. Testosterone supplementation also creates excess estrogen. You do not get to take only testosterone. Part of the testosterone is 'aromatized" to estrogen. So now you are adding more estrogen to an already excessive level of estrogen.

You can then take an estrogen blocker, but this has to be carefully monitored. Too little estrogen creates serious health problems, including bone failure. What is your E2?

Only injection is precise enough to allow correct levels of supplemental testosterone, compared to creams or gels. It should be once a week for the rest of your life. Away goes your sperm count.

The best way to naturally increase your testosterone is to lose fat and build muscle.
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