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Old 01-14-2020, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Retired
687 posts, read 531,085 times
Reputation: 1103

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Whatever your current natural production of testosterone is, once you supplement, over a long enough period of time, your body will stop producing testosterone, and your testicles will shrink from their current size. Moobs might get worse with testosterone supplementation, because of the additional estrogen. Many body builders ran into this, of course they were taking far more testosterone than you are.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Connecticut
1,016 posts, read 231,469 times
Reputation: 1088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graywhiskers View Post
What is your free testosterone level? Is it really that low? If your doctor did not test for free testosterone, you have a bad doctor. What is your estrogen level after taking testosterone? If your doctor does not test for this, you have a bad doctor. Since you are using a gel instead of getting shots, you have a bad doctor.



I'm still at work and don't have the report with me, so I don't know the numbers off hand, but they were very low for a male of my age. My doctor tested me for everything you said that would make her a "bad doctor." I had the ability to take the shots; I would have gotten them once every 3 weeks. But since I am new to this, as well as now being a patient for TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy), my doctor wanted to start me off with the gel and is monitoring me for the next month. I have done the research. The gel is just as effective as the shots, and it bypasses the liver and goes directly into the bloodstream. The gel contains the exact dosage I need.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Connecticut
1,016 posts, read 231,469 times
Reputation: 1088
I have stated that I am eating healthier and exercising. I do cardio and lift weights. My progress was stagnant in 2019, but I am back in full force.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Connecticut
1,016 posts, read 231,469 times
Reputation: 1088
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedBeth View Post
My son had low levels as a young adolescent, and he was prescribed injections just to give him a boost as he had very little facial hair, etc. This was from a pediatric endocrinologist. He and I decoded not to continue as, have others have said, your testicles will shrink as the body adjusts to not needing to produce it on its own. Hie level is probably still low but we are not going to mess with it.



My doctor is monitoring my treatment for the next month, and told me she will stop it if she feels some of these side effects are present, or if my levels don't change as much. Of course, she told me it is my body and my decision, and I can stop taking it if I want to as well.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:54 PM
 
635 posts, read 409,914 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graywhiskers View Post
Total nonsense Diesel. I was only referencing YOUR article, at the link you provided. It had a lot of caveats, it does not give testosterone supplementation a clean bill of health regarding heart disease. It stated there was no benefit to middle age men. Possibly for over 70. More studies required, and so on. I read the articles You provided.
I said nothing about benefits. The study in the article stated no association between endogenous testosterone and risk for CVD in middle-aged men.

Quote:
I can throw studies back at you, but it would be a waste of time.
Since you like making excuses in not providing evidence I will do it for you. Here is a link of 19 key studies of the effect of testosterone therapy on CV health. Only 2 of these studies shows an increased risk in CV health and they were elderly men with low serum test levels. As you may or may not know elderly men have an increased chronic disease burden.

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.or...17)30824-8/pdf

Quote:
I only linked the webmd summary of TRT side effects. IT DID NOT ONLY ADDRESS men with prostate cancer. If you feel YOUR referenced article did, then apologize. I never linked any study besides your link. You throw out straw man arguments. I linked the webmd article, the other link is YOURS. Don't you even recognize your own provided article?
Nowhere in your webmd article is there a reference to any study how testosterone therapy causes a risk in CVD or prostate cancer in healthy men. A summary of side effects is not evidence that testosterone causes CVD or cancer.


Quote:
Again:
"Are there risks to testosterone replacement therapy?
Yes. TRT has side effects, which may include:

Acne and oily skin
Lower sperm count, which can cause infertility
Increased risk of blood clots
Shrinkage of the testicles
Larger breasts
Increased risk of heart attack and stroke
Again not sure what this has to do with evidence that testosterone therapy causes CVD in healthy men. This is a strawman argument.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:59 PM
 
635 posts, read 409,914 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graywhiskers View Post
Whatever your current natural production of testosterone is, once you supplement, over a long enough period of time, your body will stop producing testosterone, and your testicles will shrink from their current size. Moobs might get worse with testosterone supplementation, because of the additional estrogen. Many body builders ran into this, of course they were taking far more testosterone than you are.
Of course they ran into side effects because bodybuilders are taking 3 times the amount that someone on TRT takes. Where someone on TRT will be in the 800 range, bodybuilders taking massive amounts of test are in the 3000 range. Way above normal. If done correctly side effects should be minimal. As with ANY MEDICATION when you have side effects you cut back on the dose to minimize the side effects.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Retired
687 posts, read 531,085 times
Reputation: 1103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
Of course they ran into side effects because bodybuilders are taking 3 times the amount that someone on TRT takes. Where someone on TRT will be in the 800 range, bodybuilders taking massive amounts of test are in the 3000 range. Way above normal. If done correctly side effects should be minimal. As with ANY MEDICATION when you have side effects you cut back on the dose to minimize the side effects.
No- I was on TRT for two months in my fifties, before I decided to quit. My doctor told me all the possible ramifications. Side effects are not always minimal. Only older men, or men who have nearly no testosterone at all, should use TRT. You could go to T-Nation, read the forum, many men there are not using performance enhancing drugs, but are on TRT. There you will find people with complications. Once you lose your ability to make testosterone, you will never get it back. Young men who want to still father children should not do it. Additional testosterone, not produced by the body, is great birth control.

Messing with your hormones is not just ANY MEDICATION. It is not taking an aspirin.

I pointed out bodybuilders user greater doses, and are therefore more likely to have a problem. TRT usually targets 600, but free testosterone is what counts. I tested at 250, but my free testosterone was mid range. I am 68.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Retired
687 posts, read 531,085 times
Reputation: 1103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
I said nothing about benefits. The study in the article stated no association between endogenous testosterone and risk for CVD in middle-aged men.


Since you like making excuses in not providing evidence I will do it for you. Here is a link of 19 key studies of the effect of testosterone therapy on CV health. Only 2 of these studies shows an increased risk in CV health and they were elderly men with low serum test levels. As you may or may not know elderly men have an increased chronic disease burden.

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.or...17)30824-8/pdf


Nowhere in your webmd article is there a reference to any study how testosterone therapy causes a risk in CVD or prostate cancer in healthy men. A summary of side effects is not evidence that testosterone causes CVD or cancer.



Again not sure what this has to do with evidence that testosterone therapy causes CVD in healthy men. This is a strawman argument.
Your complaining that YOUR article, as you stated "only referred to men with prostate cancer", (which is false as this is not the main thrust of the article) You accused me of providing a link that YOU provided. That was a strawman argument.

I never said I was going to provide a study regarding TRT impact on cardiovascular health. So you just made another strawman argument. I can find them, as can anyone, but you cannot even read your own links, why give you more.

I provided WebMD's list of potential side effects. Do a websearch, you can find more of the same.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:56 PM
 
635 posts, read 409,914 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graywhiskers View Post
No- I was on TRT for two months in my fifties, before I decided to quit. My doctor told me all the possible ramifications. Side effects are not always minimal. Only older men, or men who have nearly no testosterone at all, should use TRT. You could go to T-Nation, read the forum, many men there are not using performance enhancing drugs, but are on TRT. There you will find people with complications. Once you lose your ability to make testosterone, you will never get it back. Young men who want to still father children should not do it. Additional testosterone, not produced by the body, is great birth control.
Your own personal anecdotal evidence is not compelling evidence that everyone will have the same side effects. I took testosterone much younger than you and my natural testosterone came back just fine and had kids. Does that mean that everyone's test levels will come back when coming off? Absolutely not.

You don't make any sense, you decided to quit because of possible ramifications? Did you even have any side effect? If your free test was mid range why did your doctor put you on TRT?

Quote:
Messing with your hormones is not just ANY MEDICATION. It is not taking an aspirin.
: If you are being monitored by a doctor and getting blood work every few months this is not "messing" with your hormones.

Quote:
I pointed out bodybuilders user greater doses, and are therefore more likely to have a problem. TRT usually targets 600, but free testosterone is what counts. I tested at 250, but my free testosterone was mid range. I am 68.
Free testosterone lab results can also be unreliable.

Last edited by Diesel350z; 01-14-2020 at 07:11 PM..
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:07 PM
 
635 posts, read 409,914 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graywhiskers View Post
Your complaining that YOUR article, as you stated "only referred to men with prostate cancer", (which is false as this is not the main thrust of the article) You accused me of providing a link that YOU provided. That was a strawman argument."
Um no it was your article that was referring to men with prostate cancer should not take TRT. Here it is one last time, directly from your article since you seem to be the one that cannot read your own articles:

Should I avoid testosterone replacement therapy if I have certain conditions?
Guidelines from the Endocrine Society say you should not have TRT if you have prostate cancer or breast cancer.

Quote:
I never said I was going to provide a study regarding TRT impact on cardiovascular health. So you just made another strawman argument. I can find them, as can anyone, but you cannot even read your own links, why give you more.
Typical response for someone that cannot provide evidence to back up their claims. If anyone can find them where are they? You accuse me of straw man argument without even reading and disputing the data in the studies I provided. 17 KEY STUDIES SHOWING NO RISK!! Where is your evidence?

Quote:
I provided WebMD's list of potential side effects. Do a websearch, you can find more of the same.
LOL Why do you keep bringing up side effects? We are talking about causes of CVD and prostate cancer. I asked you specifically to provide me evidence that testosterone replacement causes CVD and prostate cancer in healthy men and you have yet to provide this by making excuses and using strawman arguments.
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