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Uh, okay. But the bottom line still is the ability to eat a healthy diet in the long run. I have always eaten the way I do now and I have no problems and I am a healthy weight. My cholesterol numbers are great and so is my blood pressure.
Your response is a bit over the top -
Oh well, since we are sharing our feelings, I find your response if a little boring ....
You can't "avoid being diabetic." It's genetic...You can avoid elevate BS by following a proper diet, exercise* and meds. Improvements in outcomes (complications) are disappointingly small. The correlation between BS vs outcomes is practically neutral--plenty of pts in good control still get complications, while plenty in lousy control don't....Look at that ubiquitous new DM med commercial-- The best they can say is "It doesn't increase your risk of MI." (!!??) Then why bother taking it?
Perhaps you can explain how their genetics changed so quickly.
I have begun a 2nd try at it. So no egg yolks, no coconut oil. No avocados. I like all 3 those but no-no on Ornish diet for heart health.
Limiting (trying too but no there yet) all nuts & seeds. I know some allowed but not as much like I used to eat. I have no heart probs says my cardio doc but been well over a yr since saw him.
Due for stress/treadmill test -- just been too lazy to go & rather workout daily on my own w/ weights & some cardio few times/wk.
So anyone follow Ornish diet to reverse or prevent cardio probs?
Even tho my total cholesterol is always about on the 120-130s -- I eat no yolks, etc.
I know its a risk for cancers tho w/ very low chol. Can't win either way.
Ok, just wanted to ask opinions on Ornish & should I eat egg yolks, coconut oil, avocados or nuts/seeds at all?
In the short term it seems reasonable, however in the long term fat soluble vitamins would be my concern. Is the problem no lipase?
He does advocate for supplementing vitamins with a multivitamin and has been a fish oil proponent for a long time for these reasons.
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It has never been just about fat; it is a whole-foods, plant-based diet. It’s fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, soy products in their natural, unrefined form, that is low in fat, low in sugar, and low in refined carbs. It is not fat versus carbs
Anyhow, the full throttle Ornish approach is more about people that have heart disease, as opposed to the guy who could lose 15 pounds and maybe has some non-ideal (but not alarming) bloodwork results.
He does advocate for supplementing vitamins with a multivitamin and has been a fish oil proponent for a long time for these reasons.
Yes of course, a sustained low fat diet is unlikely to be an ancestral diet. I have a coming and going ethno botany hobby where I would say I have had well over a hundred wild foods. My earliest was a 4 day fishing trip where I ate fish or nothing. Much later in life I learned about plants. Its usually a 2-3 week period taking advantage of micro climates. I can binge on roots like wild parsnip or carrot and then its on to shoots and leaves, until small fruit season and so on..... I can store acorn and walnut to some extent....However its labor intensive. So if you take down an elk., you would be eating elk. Maybe in the fall I walk into a wild plum colony. Were I a hunter gather I am sure I would binge on them because they all drop within a week.
grain, grain , and more grain or fruit fruit and more fruit does not seem like a very long period for adaptation.
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Anyhow, the full throttle Ornish approach is more about people that have heart disease, as opposed to the guy who could lose 15 pounds and maybe has some non-ideal (but not alarming) bloodwork results.
Well my point is you can eat an Ornish compatible meal , and then a keto compatible meal, or perhaps even those diets which combine mufa and low glyceymic carbs. So in other words the classic diet problem of monotony can be addressed simply by knowing what all of them are actually trying to avoid.
The genetics didn't change-- only the manifestation of the genetics as the Indian diet has gradually increased in calorie intake as their economy improved thru the yrs. Classic interaction of heredity & environment.
As an analogy, consider alcoholism-- "Hi. I'm Joe. I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober for 27 yrs."-- Good ol' Joe straightened himself out, quit drinking long ago and thus avoided all the complications of continued drinking....But he's still an alcoholic.
Back to what I was saying before about return to starting levels of lipids during a dietary manipulation--
initially, lipids fall on a calorie restricted diet, but then return to almost where they started as the body adjusts to remain in its 'set point"-- kinda like opening a window to cool off a room-- it only works temporarily until the thermostat & furnace kick into high gear to maintain the temp at the set point....BTW- note that the diets only give you a temporary improvement in chol levels of less than 10mg%. That's immaterial compared to the starting levels in the range of 200mg%. No help at all.
The genetics didn't change-- only the manifestation of the genetics as the Indian diet has gradually increased in calorie intake as their economy improved thru the yrs. Classic interaction of heredity & environment.
That is absolutely not what you said previously with "genetics"
Yes , that is exactly what I have been saying. We are better adapted for the SAD diet than is the lungs of a camel at the bottom of the ocean. The problem would not be entirely of genetics because the camel is alien to such an environment. Same with us only a lot less severe.
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As an analogy, consider alcoholism-- "Hi. I'm Joe. I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober for 27 yrs."-- Good ol' Joe straightened himself out, quit drinking long ago and thus avoided all the complications of continued drinking....But he's still an alcoholic.
That is a sematic, logical fallacy. That is an analogy to an arbitrary distinction of what defines an alcoholic. Yes , one will always be vulnerable to toxins. Does that make me a cyanidoholic?
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Back to what I was saying before about return to starting levels of lipids during a dietary manipulation--
initially, lipids fall on a calorie restricted diet, but then return to almost where they started as the body adjusts to remain in its 'set point"-- kinda like opening a window to cool off a room-- it only works temporarily until the thermostat & furnace kick into high gear to maintain the temp at the set point....BTW- note that the diets only give you a temporary improvement in chol levels of less than 10mg%. That's immaterial compared to the starting levels in the range of 200mg%. No help at all.
Oh the old set point theory. Yes at some point most people cannot keep adding fat. Not necessarily a good thing at all. My set point seems to have dropped 15lbs for a decade avoiding mixed macro diets, just like millions of others, but also I am quite sure PUFA is involved as well. if you eat a diet that causes weight gain you will keep gaining weight up to a limit ,and that limit is usually not good to reach.
As adipose tissue distends, it comes increasingly insulin resistant in a rather linear relationship. The SAD diet resemblance is like late fall diet, great for putting on weight. Also happens to resemble human breast milk. Any idea why is not just sugar or fat , the most fattening macro of the two? Nope its a mixed saturated fat and sugar macro diet designed to add lots of fat.
However continuous weight gain will result first in normoglycemia being achieved by hyperinsulinemia. Even fasting insulin must rise to keep fat from inappropriate leaking out NEFA. Eventually , the pancreases cannot keep up, and one is diabetic. One way to avid this is to be one of those genetic outliers that crease new adipocyes , in which case diabetes will be avoided in exchange for weighing 400lbs and more.
Oh yeah and if you are thin on the SAD diet , you may be enjoying it at the expense of being unable to store the extra energy ingress and you have a sever metabolic issue with visceral fat nonetheless.
That is a sematic, logical fallacy. That is an analogy to an arbitrary distinction of what defines an alcoholic. Yes , one will always be vulnerable to toxins. Does that make me a cyanidoholic?
I don't think its fallacious logic. Alcoholism has a genetic component, but it also has environmental and social factors as well. Take three or four generations of a family. Oftentimes the children of alcoholics are acutely aware of the dangers of alcoholism and are very cautious drinkers, if not teetotalers. But their kids or grandkids aren't. And, if the right mix of exposure, environment, etc, comes out, and you may very well see it crop up in the grandkids when they reach adulthood.
Some will become alcoholics simply by drinking.
Some may go through a traumatic experience like a war or divorce or job loss and develop an addiction.
Some can party hardy all through their youth, and never develop alcoholism.
Not unlike diabetes in that regard. Some people have a higher genetic predisposition to develop it, but some don't.
Some people are going to develop it no matter what.
Some people are going to develop it if they get heavy and don't exercise.
Some people can be fat and lazy and never develop diabetes.
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I like all 3 those but no-no on Ornish diet for heart health.
