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Old 04-20-2020, 08:17 AM
 
1,360 posts, read 808,587 times
Reputation: 1788

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Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
There are A LOT of issues regarding reporting of deaths from/with COVID and deaths from/with influenza. Cases are underreported, overreported, and not reported at all.

If you die of advanced lung cancer after testing positive for COVID, are you a COVID death or not? What about advanced lung cancer + influenza? If you were already terminal, how does someone decide whether another disease pushed you over the edge, or you were going to go anyway?

These questions do not have easy or consistent answers and I take all of the numbers with a huge grain of salt.
I agree with you there are many other factors why the person died. Covid-19 is not the sole cause in probably 98% of cases. According to other infectiiious disease experts, we still haven't tested everyone and it'll end up being at 1% mortality rate The overwhelming majority are elderly and those with co-morbid conditions who may have died in months or a few years. We know Covid-19 is an associative disease that seriously affects other conditions and respiratory system.

We also know if you drink alcohol & smoke excessively and eat massive amounts of fried and fatty foods then die suddenly (and hundreds of thousands do each year), which fatal condition are you going to pick for COD?


According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use (3). An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic.

Yet we keep serving up crap food for kids in schools and some schools remove mandatory physical education classes. Mayors still allow fast food restaurants to dominate in their cities.
These local political leaders are hypocrites who say they really care about lives.

CDC leading causes of death in US annually
  • Heart disease: 647,457
  • Cancer: 599,108
  • Accidents (unintentional injuries): 169,936
  • Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 160,201
  • Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 146,383
  • Alzheimer’s disease: 121,404
  • Diabetes: 83,564
  • Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,672
  • Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 50,633
  • Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,173

google Judy Mikovits, another expert seasoned infectitious disease physician and her history with Fauci. read more than three stories and sources to gauge accuracy.
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Old 04-20-2020, 09:15 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,261 posts, read 1,851,782 times
Reputation: 1621
Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
There are A LOT of issues regarding reporting of deaths from/with COVID and deaths from/with influenza. Cases are underreported, overreported, and not reported at all.

If you die of advanced lung cancer after testing positive for COVID, are you a COVID death or not? What about advanced lung cancer + influenza? If you were already terminal, how does someone decide whether another disease pushed you over the edge, or you were going to go anyway?

These questions do not have easy or consistent answers and I take all of the numbers with a huge grain of salt.
Undercounting has been widely reported as a problem here and in europe. Even from an anecdotal perspective this has often been reported as being the case from health care workers. No one has claimed there to be overreporting here, especially when there aren't even enough tests to confirm ppl even have covid to begin with. Why would extra deaths be blamed on covid19 when ppl aren't even able to be tested for covid?
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Old 04-20-2020, 09:36 AM
 
1,388 posts, read 741,749 times
Reputation: 3573
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankrj View Post
. Covid-19 is not the sole cause in probably 98% of cases.

Link please?

Or anyone can say something seemingly equally ridiculous.... such as Covid is the #1 cause of death in the US now, during the period from March 1 to April 14.

Oh wait. It is, via the link from an earlier poster: https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1712761/

Which nullifies the rest of your post, as you're speaking annually...and we're yet to see anything "annually" for covid. Let's wait and see what a year's worth of deaths from covid are before we compare anything "annually"


PSST: Anything can have comorbidity - including *everything* on your list.
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Old 04-20-2020, 12:36 PM
 
Location: West Coast U.S.A.
1,045 posts, read 357,849 times
Reputation: 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by crusinsusan View Post
And keeping in mind.....


1. Covid numbers are WITH social distancing


2. Flu number are WITHOUT social distancing.



3. The flu has comorbidity too...which I haven't seen mentioned in all these arguments about "other illnesses/being old"/etc.


(As an aside, a broadway actor just lost his leg due to "complications" from covid....has to do with blood clotting and the meds for the clotting were causing problems so they had to amputate. It's possible that happened to someone with the flu too, but I dunno)
Important points that any seem to forget.
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Old 04-20-2020, 01:12 PM
 
Location: McAllen, TX
4,467 posts, read 3,016,341 times
Reputation: 5285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry-Koala View Post
Important points that any seem to forget.
And the "regular" flu is NOT a pandemic.
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Old 04-20-2020, 02:53 PM
 
1,388 posts, read 741,749 times
Reputation: 3573
Pro-plague people can't be reasoned with. For the rest of us, here's something about the rules...covers most of them:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4jR_9-YPK8
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Old 04-20-2020, 02:55 PM
 
1,360 posts, read 808,587 times
Reputation: 1788
One study, led by Dr. Christopher Petrilli, examined the factors associated with hospitalization and critical illness among 4,103 patients with COVID-19 for about one month. Nearly half of the patients were hospitalized. The study found that the strongest hospitalization risks were age over 75, obesity and history of heart failure, in that order.
"Age is the most important demographic factor for severity of disease and more important than any single disease, but obesity is among the most important diseases in terms of risk," Dr. Leora Horwitz, one of the authors, told PolitiFact.

-----------------
OBESITY UPS ODDS for Severe Covid-19 in Younger Patients


The researchers suspect that inflammation throughout the body linked to obesity could be a powerful factor in the severity of Covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.
And, they added, it could even be more significant than heart or lung disease.

"This has relevance in the US, where 40% of Americans are obese, and will no doubt contribute to increased morbidity and likely mortality, compared to other countries," said Dr Jennifer Lighter, co-author of one of the studies. Lighter is an assistant professor of paediatric infectious diseases at NYU School of Medicine in New York City.
-- https://www.health24.com/Medical/Inf...ients-20200415

--------------------
Why is New Orleans' coronavirus death rate twice New York's Obesity is a factor
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN21K1B0


Obesity also confirmed by a Univ. of Minn. study - https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...-covid-19-risk


The majority who recover from Covid-19 are largely healthy, and not obese.

Deaths should not be labeled as only a Covid-19 death when 40% of America is obese. Italy has started adding the patients comorbidity to the cause of death. "More than 99% of coronavirus patients in Italy who died suffered from other preexisting medical issues, according to a study by health officials." https://nypost.com/2020/03/18/over-9...her-illnesses/

- Spain has disputes too with unreliable numbers.https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/w...eath-toll.html

I read that someone disagreed with me and gave a knee jerk explanation calling me ideological? What a great assumption because I was going to vote for Tulsi. I'm an independent and just want the best common sense solution an don't follow the herd when I have so many sources outside of Fox, NBC or CNN to analyze the info, hypocracies, and double-talk. So, that throws that generalization into the water.


We're all in this together and that means questioning authority and having an open ear (or eye) towards other reports. It's not always a conspiracy, and not always so straightforward just because you hear on your local news. You don't need to attack someone's comment as ridiculous. That only creates divisiveness and sadly a closed mind.
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Old 04-20-2020, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
26,594 posts, read 30,879,267 times
Reputation: 33129
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankrj View Post

Deaths should not be labeled as only a Covid-19 death when 40% of America is obese. Italy has started adding the patients comorbidity to the cause of death. "More than 99% of coronavirus patients in Italy who died suffered from other preexisting medical issues, according to a study by health officials."
Having a high risk factor does not negate the fact that someone with a SARS-CoV-19 infection who dies from the associated pneumonia and organ failure died from COVID-19, even if he might have died from cancer next month.

If obesity was the high risk factor (actually the metabolic abnormalities associated with obesity), you get COVID-19 and die, you died from COVID-19, not obesity.

If you have chronic lung disease and die from COVID-19, it was the COVID-19 that did you in.

COVID-19 is coded as the cause of death on the death certificate. Obesity or cancer or COPD are coded as contributing factors.
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Old 04-21-2020, 09:38 AM
 
Location: NJ
13,393 posts, read 23,033,529 times
Reputation: 12369
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
Very cool - thanks!
Agree. I hadn't clicked it until you posted so thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by crusinsusan View Post
Okay Mike, reneeh's 2nd post made me click on it. It is cool In a sad way.

I used to click on links without information, but it was a sucker move...so I started googling them prior to clicking...then there's just too much crapola people are trying to pass off as "real" that I don't want to waste my time.

Thanks reneeh.


Edited to add: I never finished reading a news article this morning...and went back to it now...and saw that public flourish link was in the paragraph after the one I stopped at. (insert embarassed emoji here)
I wish people would post some quotes or say what it is such as this one is a graph that starts with COVID at the bottom, then COVID moves up as it changes the day of the month

Quote:
Originally Posted by roodd279 View Post
The flu deaths suffer (no pun) from same math problems as the COVID deaths - unlike, say, gunshot wounds. Flu deaths are ALSO over/under reported, are not always determined from a test (before or after death) and are compounded by other conditions (already stated above).


YES - some deaths marked as COVID would have been marked as something else, given enough time and resources. But we're not talking about marking up gunshot wounds as COVID. If you have COVID symptoms, you're being treated or advised for COVID, your family sees you're sick of what is probably COVID, and now you die, during an COVID pandemic - it is not a stretch to write COVID on your death certificate - even if your spouse poisoned you instead. So - yep - there is (with this method) a risk of overcount - but it will be some small percent, not a game changing number. And whatever that percent is - it's EXACTLY the same percent as with influenza. Because it's counted the same way.



So no matter how ya spin it - COVID is closing in on flu deaths - as even the most skeptical scientist knew it would - and that is WITH a couple billion people in voluntary isolation. Don't worry though - I'm sure as soon as it actually passes the flu count, they'll move the goal posts again.


If you're still reading - because, like me, you're a realist about this: Go to the CDC website find how many people died of pneumonia last year. Not from the flu. Just regular pneumonia. YES - I know lots of people die from pneumonia BECAUSE of the flu - and that's fine. But as it turns out...lots die of pneumonia NOT because of the flu. How do we separate? How can we know? Impossible situation. So those large "dead from flu" numbers? Always more than actually died. Just like COVID.
Thanks for your opinion. I'm surprised I can't rep you. I hand out a lot of reps every day, must have recently given it to you lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankrj View Post
I agree with you there are many other factors why the person died. Covid-19 is not the sole cause in probably 98% of cases. According to other infectiiious disease experts, we still haven't tested everyone and it'll end up being at 1% mortality rate The overwhelming majority are elderly and those with co-morbid conditions who may have died in months or a few years. We know Covid-19 is an associative disease that seriously affects other conditions and respiratory system.

We also know if you drink alcohol & smoke excessively and eat massive amounts of fried and fatty foods then die suddenly (and hundreds of thousands do each year), which fatal condition are you going to pick for COD?


According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use (3). An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic.

Yet we keep serving up crap food for kids in schools and some schools remove mandatory physical education classes. Mayors still allow fast food restaurants to dominate in their cities.
These local political leaders are hypocrites who say they really care about lives.

CDC leading causes of death in US annually
  • Heart disease: 647,457
  • Cancer: 599,108
  • Accidents (unintentional injuries): 169,936
  • Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 160,201
  • Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 146,383
  • Alzheimer’s disease: 121,404
  • Diabetes: 83,564
  • Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,672
  • Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 50,633
  • Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,173

google Judy Mikovits, another expert seasoned infectitious disease physician and her history with Fauci. read more than three stories and sources to gauge accuracy.
Thanks for your opinion. Check out Mike's link which I've included below that's a graph that shows COVID at the bottom, then as the days change, COVID moves up until April 14th where it's at the top

Covid vs. US Daily Average Cause of Death By Robert Martin on 14 Apr 2020

Quote:
Covid-19 - 2407
Heart Disease - 1774
Cancer - 1641
Accidents- 466
Chronic Lung Disease - 439
Stroke - 401
Alzheimer's - 333
Diabetes - 229
Influenza & Pneumonia - 153
Kidney Disease - 139
Suicide - 129
Liver Disease - 114
Sepsis - 112
High Blood Pressure - 97
Parkinson's Disease - 88
Lung Obstruction - 55
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Old 04-21-2020, 10:35 AM
 
1,360 posts, read 808,587 times
Reputation: 1788
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Having a high risk factor does not negate the fact that someone with a SARS-CoV-19 infection who dies from the associated pneumonia and organ failure died from COVID-19, even if he might have died from cancer next month.

If obesity was the high risk factor (actually the metabolic abnormalities associated with obesity), you get COVID-19 and die, you died from COVID-19, not obesity.

If you have chronic lung disease and die from COVID-19, it was the COVID-19 that did you in.

COVID-19 is coded as the cause of death on the death certificate. Obesity or cancer or COPD are coded as contributing factors.
Yes, it's well understood what they put on the death certificate as COD. Yet everyone knows if the person did not have the co-morbidity, COPD, they likely would have recovered. News never reports recoveries or asymptomatic. That's too boring and doesn't catch your attention.

Example: You were speeding down the hill and went off the embankment. Accident gets listed as speeding, yet after CSI investigated they found break failure from a driver with zero accidents or tickets. The cause of death was appropriately changed.

Obviously I am not claiming all or half are questionable. But the person who is 100-200 lbs overweight, has extremely high blood pressure, heart arythmia, or breathes from their neck from chain smoking, should not be listed as Covid and call it a day. I know there's errors and reporting of all CODs well before Covid-19. Just saying this because the media is reporting these deaths as 100% accurate and absolute.

Aren't we supposed to be lovers of digging deep into the data and not looking at the surface? Below the surface we know the major contributing cause. Italy studied 95% if its mortality cases and found obesity and co-morbidity as the major factors of death. Some doctors over there and Latin America have changed it altogether when nurses questioned the reporting.
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