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Old 02-27-2009, 04:03 PM
 
Location: The 719
17,900 posts, read 27,295,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
I am of the firm belief that those with addictions use the "disease" label to absolve themselves for their choices that are not healthy...
Hmmm, wonder how I missed this one. The only alcoholics that I see are ones in a meeting. If they want to do drugs and drink, that's their bidniz, not mine. Oh, it may be the business of employers, family members, friends, clergy, medical staff, cops, lawyers, etc. But I give them a big huge wide berth. That drug or that alcohol may do more for that person than any human being could do. Oh! That's what those of us with Faith would say, that's God's business. So once they wave the white flag and ask for help, that's my bidnez.

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
I will concede, however, that once addicted brain chemistry is altered thereby leading to a craving for more of the same. This, however, is an addiction and not a disease...
Alcoholics are not addicts. They have an allergy to alcohol which is physical and a mental obsession to alcohol which sort of looks like an addiction, but is different. Read the AA book from page 23 to 43 and see what I'm talking about. Even the book Under the Influence has a great description of the physiological effects of alcohol.

My take on mind altering drugs and you can share my thoughts or dispute them: anybody can be an addict. Anybody can become a nonaddict. Addiction is different than alcoholism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
It pains me when I hear things like "your disease is doing pushups in the parking lot", "your disease wants to kill you."...
Oh. You went to some bad meetings too, huh? I think all that guy is trying to say is that once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. If a guy quits drinking for 25 years and goes back to drinking, it's as if he never quit. I've quit for as long as 3 years and drank again and it ain't pretty. That's my experience. Your disbelief in my experience or desire to label it some other thing is of no relevance to me. My experience with it is the only teacher. We learn that we have but a daily reprieve on our alcoholism, based on our spiritual condition... more on that later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
I know alcoholism is claimed to be a "disease" by the AMA, but I honestly think that has more to do with insurance coverage than anything else. I also think it was labeled this way to remove the "shame" associated with those who are addicted to alcohol.
I agree with the former. AA sure didn't push it. AA didn't get any monetary help from anybody and thus has ultimate freedom to this day. They did try to sober up some wet drunks though, and may have killed a few. They do encourage you to get medical attention to "come down" and this probably saves lives. The administering of valium for some may save lives or at least avoid the jitters, shakes, convulsions, DT's, death, etc. But after that, then what? 28 or 14 days of expensive therapy? AA meetings are a buck!

Addicted to alcohol? We'll meet you half-way on your terminology (IT'S NOT A DISEASE!!!!!!), but I'd appreciate it if y'all would learn to use our terminology (our as in Recovered Alcoholics); alcoholism is not addiction! That's a doctor's terminology! Only mistake in the Big Book was probably from the Dr's Opinion when Silkworth called it that, but his heart was in the right place.

"Shame"? You really think a down and out alky has much problem with shame? I always drink all the shame and virtue that I have! Show me a drunk with dignity and I'll show you a wooden nickle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
One thing that really irks me are die-hard steppers who want to label everything a disease - from codependency to alcohol dependence (as it's now known in the DSM IV) to drug addiction to any myriad of other 12 step programs - overeaters anonymous, gambers anonymous, adult children of acoholics, sex addicts anonymous and on and on.
There again, so you've been to some bad meetings too? One thing I hate hearing is "Just don't drink and go to meetings."

My creed is "Come on in, get a cup of coffee and let's talk." We talk about whether they are alky or not. We give them the dignity to at least talk about how they drink. We let them come to their own conclusion as to whether they belong there or not. If we are convinced that they are alkies like us, we then ask, "Are you ready to quit for good and all?" None of this day at a time garbage. We ask them, "Are you ready to do something about it?" If they baulk, we don't work with them. But if they say "yes" and "yes" and mean it, we say, "Get goin'. Get writing this inventory" and we show them how we did it. Or like they said to me, "It's up to you, bud. Either you're gonna do this stuff or you're not." The ball is always in the new guy's court! Never the group's! I am responsible for me! Always!

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
to drug addiction to any myriad of other 12 step programs - overeaters anonymous, gambers anonymous, adult children of acoholics, sex addicts anonymous and on and on.
That's why I believe in closed meetings. We can't be everything to everybody. Drunks help drunks. Dope users help dope users. Etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
Anyway, why haven't things evolved more in the whole field of addiction medicine? Is it because addicts are the scourge of society and not worth the time and money? Why must the primary form of "treatment" be based on some antiquated "spiritual" solution. Certainly cancer would not be treated this way.
Well, that used to be the way! Nobody but Dr. Silkworth wanted to work with drunks because all they do is lie and get drunk and don't pay their bills and die! At least until they labelled it a disease and insurance helped out and then... Well to be honest, they've been trying to quantify a treatment for this and ultimately, it just don't work. The spiritual approach has been the most successful solution. Back when AA started, they had a 75% recovery rate. What's changed? Some cry that it's only 5% now, but I suspect that the program got watered down. My program ain't. I read the black on the white and do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
I'd post these questions in a recovery forum, but honesty, I think people on this forum are not brain-washed and will have more level-headed responses.
Oops! I guess I'm that brain-washed guy. But hey, I'm sober! Cheers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
Yes, and due to the nature of AA, it is not subject to public scrutiny at all. I read the other day that 60% of its members are there not of their own free will. IOW, sent by the courts. That is flat out nuts.

I think SMART and other organizations like SOS and LifeRing are a great alternative. Unfortunately, AA and other 12 step programs have such a stronghold and domination of the legal system and treatment industry that it will be YEARS until these alternatives make it into the mainstream, if ever.
All this stuff is unnecessary. AA already works, for alkies. Going back to my experience with closed meeting, the mere following of the traditions solves all these problems.

AA and 12-step don't have a stronghold on anything. Judges send people to AA. Employers send people to AA. AA can't even fight this due to their own traditions: Outside Issue. AA merely cooperates. You want your papers signed, fine. I know chair people who say, "I'll sign your papers for you now so you can stay or leave. Your choice."

They can close the meeting to alkies or at least read the Blue Card for open meetings. Even in an open meeting, the shares are confined to problems related to alcohol.

Once in a great while, a person is given their own dignity to send themselves to AA. I'll bet you money there's a bunch of people out there that need to get sober. Yet they stray far away.

The last time the cops hauled me off to jail, I was so drunk and so remorseful and so shamed that they thought I was trying to commit suicide. They took me to the psych ward and had me checked out. I was such a gentleman that they called my wife for me and begged her to understand. She told me, "You know the drill. Just sleep it off. I'm not dealing with you drunk." So they put me in the room right next to their office so they could watch me;it was the room that inmates get on the phone and talk to their family on, the one with all the glass-so they could watch me. They didn't even take me to detox. They tied me up at times so I wouldn't hurt myself (so I found out the next day). When I came to, they placed breakfast and a nice cup of coffee by my head. I scarfed it down fast and started to feel better. It was just my typical drunk. When I last remembered the night before, I was having a great time! My friends (coworkers) thought I was fine. On the way back to our hotel, they said I jumped a barrier onto a patio-side bar and sat with some stangers and said, "You guys go on ahead. I'm just gonna have one more drink with my friends and I'll see you in the morning." From that moment till the time the cops showed up, I was anything but a gentleman. Just ask the owners of the hotel I tried to destroy.

Last edited by McGowdog; 02-27-2009 at 05:23 PM..
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Old 02-27-2009, 08:19 PM
 
Location: The 719
17,900 posts, read 27,295,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
The bad mood model does not work, b/c although I cannot control when I'm in a bad mood, I can control my actions during the time. For instance, I am one of those people who does not take my bad mood out on other people. B/c "I'm sad" or "I'm tired" or "I had a fight with my wife" is not someone else's problem. In the end, you control your behavior.

Labeling everyone who cannot function exactly perfectly normally in society as 'diseased' takes too much of the responsibility out of their hands. I have several friends who should clearly have a very strong genetic predisposition towards alcoholism (like every single family member is a complete drunk) who don't touch the stuff or are able to control their consumption.
A big huge part of the AA program after getting some abstinence from alcohol is to work on the "causes and conditions". Alcoholics are childish, selfish, dishonest, inconsiderate, resentful, and fearful to the extreme. I'd like to add mischievous, petty, manipulative, and egotistical although inferior, arrogant, combative, dangerously anti-social, abusive, and needy. They're slow to learn and quick to forget.

They take inventory of their "defects of character" aka "shortcomings" aka "sins". They confess that with another human being and God, they take all their defects to God and ask God to remove them, then they take a list of those they've harmed and they ammend the damage, then they do daily spot checks, then they pray and meditate every morning, evening, and throughout the day for God's guidance. God in turn removes the obsession to drink and a few other goodies, and they get to share that with someone new. Which means going to a meeting and drinking a cup of coffee, speak for 5 minutes and listen for 55 minutes. Some people smoke a cig after the meeting. Some don't smoke, but talk and listen some more. Alkies like to go get pie too.

So if you can control your actions and not fart on anybody, well ladeeda to you. I'm happy for you. But you don't sound like someone I would have drank with.

Quote:
I have several friends who should clearly have a very strong genetic predisposition towards alcoholism (like every single family member is a complete drunk) who don't touch the stuff or are able to control their consumption.
There's a really good explanation for that in Under the Influence. Keep an eye on this person though. See if they can consume large quantities of booze without seeming drunk. If this ever happens, they might want to be careful. Some otherwise normal or hard drinkers become the real thing later in life. For the ones who don't touch the stuff; teetotalers.

If I could handle and enjoy my drinking, I would. Why not? It would be great to come home from work and have a beer or two, or a nice glass of wine. I can't do that. I did it once, I think. It's like a gambler who finally wins one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
There are lots of people when they just quit drinking or using turn into normal humans.
Not my experience at all. If this was true, why are our prisons lined with sober and clean alkys and druggies? Can't they just not drink and drug and go on and live nice happy lives? Living sober for the alcoholic ain't no picnic. Meetings aren't intended to be something you use till you taper off. AA don't have no graduation. I, for one, do steps yearly. I go on a spiritual retreat, yearly. I go to at least 2 meetings per week; more if I'm helping somebody through steps. I don't go to any more than that because I have a wife to come home to who likes to spend time with me too. Alcohol is NOT the problem, remember? It's but a symptom.

So after reading the Orange Papers, let's rewrite the steps, shall we?
  1. Admitted that our parents are terrible and it's the world's fault.
  2. Came to believe that reliance on God is weak and a cop-out. Call it a disease and beg the Gov't for money.
  3. Made a decision to smoke lots of cigarettes and drink lots of coffee.
  4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of everybody else in the room.
  5. Admitted to me myself and I that if I ever get as bad as those others, I'm gonna ask for help.
  6. Were entirely ready to pontificate on what this program is all about.
  7. Humbly looked into the mirror and compared my outsides to your insides.
  8. Made of list of people who owe me money.
  9. Made direct ammends and told people what I really think about them.
  10. Continued to find excuses for my behavior and unique ways of blaming others.
  11. Sought through Praise and Medication to improve my mood and ask God to help me feel good.
  12. Give freely everything I've learned.

Last edited by McGowdog; 02-27-2009 at 09:48 PM.. Reason: add
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Old 02-28-2009, 09:33 PM
 
843 posts, read 1,293,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
AA has a 5% success rate. Congratulations it worked for you.

Unfortunately, it's hurt many and is an impediment to getting on with the business of offering alternatives to it.

AA doesn't keep track of who comes and goes so there is no way to determine how many people find sobriety. Any number given is just a guess. 5% is just a lie.

From my experience I would say more like 75% success. But, that is just a guess from my own observations.

And AA doesn't work with the courts or hospitals or any other group. And just because people say it does doesn't make it so.

And I have met plenty of people that have gotten sober without AA. As far as I know AA has never stopped any other group from getting people get sober. Do you have any examples or are you just living in make-believe land because you don't like AA?


And please give an example of ow AA has been an impediment to other groups offerring alternatives? I'd really like to know something specific?
Just one? Bet you can't do it, because it doesn't happen.

If you have a problem with AA's success rate or how meetings are conducted or whatever then you shouldn't go.

There are plenty of groups that I don't particualry agree with everything they do. So, if I don't go then I need not worry about them.

Seems to work for me.
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Old 02-28-2009, 09:41 PM
 
843 posts, read 1,293,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post

That's why I believe in closed meetings. We can't be everything to everybody. Drunks help drunks. Dope users help dope users. Etc.

AA and 12-step don't have a stronghold on anything. Judges send people to AA. Employers send people to AA. AA can't even fight this due to their own traditions: Outside Issue. AA merely cooperates. You want your papers signed, fine. I know chair people who say, "I'll sign your papers for you now so you can stay or leave. Your choice."

I pretty much stick to closed meetings for the same reasons.

And I don't sign court papers if I am chairing. It is my choice to sign them or not. And people usually stay anyhow, which helps me and hopefully them.

No one in AA is forcing me to cooperate with the courts. Last time I dealt with them I ended up in jail. LOLs.
It all goes along with the cult and brainwashing people speak of.

You know, the freedom to do as we choose.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Connecticut
1,461 posts, read 4,852,900 times
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Default The 12 Step Thing and Naming addictions diseases

Ok, so I have to ask the obvious, what makes you feel or think that you are the authority or know all there is to know about how the 12 Step Program works and whether or not addictive behavior can be classified as a disease? Should you not be glad as opposed to aggrevated that there are groups for alcoholics showing proven track records of having helped people manage this disease? Just because you feel that a certain addiction should not be labled a disease doesn't mean that it is not one. So many parts of your body and mind can become ill that it is mind boggling to try to comprehend where the "wires get crossed" or what happened within a certain "gene pool"...who gave us the "bad seed" to begin with. My Father had an emotional problem that too him years to overcome. Mental illness...YES that is a disease too. Your brain can and will get ill just like the rest of your body. Do you want to try to get that uncatagorized as a disease as well.

My late husband was an alcoholic and through the 12 step program with AA was clean and sober for 13 years. They taught him how to manage his DISEASE.

If I were you, I would try not to be so judgemental of people perhaps in a different life circumstance than you are. Whether a person is a full blown alcoholic, is full of cancer or has a mild case of poison ivy...they are all diseases and compassion is in order..lack of compassion is close to being your disease of choice at this point.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:12 PM
 
Location: The 719
17,900 posts, read 27,295,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthPoleMarathoner View Post
And I don't sign court papers if I am chairing.
Well if I was the chair picker of that meeting, you wouldn't chair it.

Do you think it's good to send one more alky to prison so the state can support him on our dime? Where's the Golden Rule in that? That's all ego. Hope you don't drink over this.

Besides that, a good alky would just sign the papers himself anyway. Maybe one in 100 that gets sent to the meeting may retain a seat, like me. It took me 10 years from the time I bought my Big Book till the time I cracked the cover a second time. Then after the courts sent me to another AA meeting, I took my book to another meeting. It took me 16 years to get 5 and I'm sober now. What's your story?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connecticut Pam View Post
Should you not be glad as opposed to aggrevated that there are groups for alcoholics showing proven track records of having helped people manage this disease?
That's a great question, but at least those of us in recovery can see what's going on in the world about us and why we have hope and happiness while the rest of those poor saps out there are stressed out and pouring gas on themselves then lighting themselves on fire and jumping out of windows. We have hope!

All I can say about 12 Step is get an experience in it, then we can rap about it. Until then, I'm not interested in your opinion of which you know nothing about.

A guy in a meeting I went to yesterday morning took a 24 hour chip. In otherwords, he drank again, but came back with 3 or so hours of sobriety. So, did AA fail? I counted 18 sober alkies, one alanon, and one drunk. So what's the percentage of recovery in that room? If you say 5%, I'm gonna tell you to move over to the Other Topics forum. You're clueless.

Here's the 75% recovery explanation: In 1955, there were 150,000 sober alkies in the world and they'd sold 300,000 Big Books. Of those 50% that failed the first time, 50% of those got sober on the second go-around. So there ya go; 75% recovery rate. Then of the 25% that couldn't get sober and/or died, they did show improvement in their life in some way.

The rumor that's going around about 5% recovery rate, here's how those geniuses came up with this stat; they counted up all the 24-hour chips they give away in a year, then divided that by the 1 year chips in the same year... 5%. Brilliant! My homegroup don't give out chips. It's a waste of good meeting time! We also don't sit around and clap for each other! Thank God for Autonomy!

Last edited by McGowdog; 03-01-2009 at 02:36 PM..
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:49 PM
 
Location: The 719
17,900 posts, read 27,295,600 times
Reputation: 17160
Northpole, I shouldn't be so harsh about the signing of papers thing. If that's how you want to do it, that's how it goes.

I have cousins and family in law and they send people to meetings. They've learned to question them on it too; "Do you have a sponsor? Are you reading the book and doing steps? What step are you on now?" That sort of stuff. Add: They give them updated meeting lists too!

So it goes back to why I heard the judges, Probation/Parole people etc. send alkies to AA; "It Works".

You know why I quoted that? because it's in the book; page 88. You know why it says that in the book? Because... "it really does!"

Now, to the OP... I did a search on the Big Book for the word "disease" and this is what I came up with... one occurrence;

"From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick."

So it's a spiritual disease; there again, should not be covered by insurance. Send them straight to AA and close the worthless treatment centers down. We can taper them off with a shot of booze. The docs and cousellors and shrinks can stuff their freaking valium.

If you're really concerned about the state of AA and its recovery rate, educate the judges, court systems, and counsellors to start sending thieves to Thieves Anonymous, Meth users to Meth Anonymous, Child Molesters to Child Molester Anonymous, etc. Make sense?

Last edited by McGowdog; 03-01-2009 at 11:06 PM..
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Old 03-02-2009, 09:16 PM
 
3,650 posts, read 9,187,596 times
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Good grief, just when I thought I'd steered clear of this...

I certainly don't mean to put down anyone who has had problems w/this or belittle how difficult it must be to deal with at all, but: ALCOHOLISM IS NOT A DISEASE. Jeezofreakinmighty. Malaria. Smallbox. Bubonic Plague. Those are diseases. CHOOSING to wolf down booze (or drugs) is not. Also water is wet.

If someone is "prone to being unable to control it" then here's an idea: don't do it.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:14 PM
 
Location: The 719
17,900 posts, read 27,295,600 times
Reputation: 17160
Rocks are hard and fire is hot. But here's the solution for all who suffer the afflictions of alcoholism or drug addiction;

Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2000
don't do it.
Well, let's just round all the alcoholics and addicts up and have them read this! This is wonderful news! Even more simple than AA or fill-in-the-blankA

So the loss of disease status ought to free up some industries! We'll probably have an over-abundance of orange juice and honey. Anabuse will be a thing of the past. Nasty stuff anyway. I was told I smell like rotten garlic when I'm taking that stuff. I hope it was that stuff anyway!

Some Psychiatrists and psychologists and couselors are gonna have to go out and get some real jobs. A lot of lives will be saved. The coffee industry and tobacco industry and medical industry are gonna take a serious hit. World Services in New York and central offices across the world are gonna become vacant.

Wonder what people will do with their time now? Hmmm. Maybe start a fight club or something.

Last edited by picmod; 01-10-2014 at 06:39 AM..
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Old 04-17-2009, 09:08 AM
 
27 posts, read 84,116 times
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Thank goodness I went to AA for number of years and gained the ability to never touch alcohol. I wouldn't be who i am today without my finally realizing that alcohol was ruining my life. The trouble with AA is you really are not encouraged at meetings to criticize it as there is pressure to stay positive for the newcomer. It is not really a rule, but most people at meetings do not like to hear criticism. It is what is working for them at the time and is sort of their lifeline, so they have personal reasons why they don't like to hear things that are contrary to AA philosophy. I never thought my alcoholism was a disease. I called it an addiction and a disorder. Calling it a disease is about getting funding for rehabs and psychiatric care. People didn't like to hear that. AA has some very fervent believers. I went to Smart recovery for a while but no one at the meetings ever stayed sober for any time. They don't believe in having "time" in Smart Recovery -meaning having better or worse sobriety as it relates to not having a drink. There isn't the strong incentive to stay sober for any length of time at least the one I went to, in Smart Recovery. So many people at the meetings kept drinking. It was depressing. Newly sober alcoholics are very fragile and kind of crazy. Having an extended period of time in which a person doesn't have a drink, surrounded by encouraging and sober fellow alcoholics, does often lessen their craving for alcohol. I fortunately was able to overcome my desire for alcohol through AA but I understand how some could be turned off by it.
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