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Old 11-11-2009, 12:00 PM
 
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On the surface, the question "does high cholesterol cause heart disease" seems to be an easy question to answer. Of course, the obvious answer is "yes", everyone knows that! But is it true?

Well, that depends on who you ask. Considering the fact that cholesterol reducing drugs (statins) are the most widely prescribed drug in the world today, accounting for some 20 Billion dollars in revenue annually, don't ask the pharmaceutical companies producing these drugs and expect an unbiased, honest answer. And don't expect the doctors and the lab technicians and the pharmacies to give any answer other than the one they have been trained to give.

Unfortunately, the reality is that the true science (not the pseudoscience promoting this scam) shows that high cholesterol has nothing to do with heart disease. The fact that cholesterol is found in the plaque buildup within the arteries is the circumstantial foundation for this belief that it's the cause, but as one researcher explained, that's like blaming firefighters for a fire simply because they are found at fires.

On the surface, ALL of the anecdotal evidence shows that in analyzing the diets of various cultures around the world, those with the highest fat/cholesterol diets had the lowest rates of heart disease per capita. Countries with the highest saturated fat diets: Austria, France, Finland and Belgium had the lowest rate of deaths from heart disease, while the lowest fat diets: Georgia, Ukraine and Croatia had the highest death rates from heart disease.

In one of the largest studies ever, 50 Million people were put on a restricted fat diet (rationing of food in England during WWII), and the death rate from heart disease doubled during that time.

In a Swedish study charting 30,000 men and women of middle age found no change in heart disease among the men with hight fat diets, while in the women, the high fat diet group had a drop in heart disease rates.

Studying the diets of the Japanese from the late 1950's to 1999 as their diets became more westernized, their protein intake doubled and their fat consumption increased 400%. The death rate from heart disease decreased by 50% and their stroke rate (highest in the world) dropped 7 fold.

Of course, the promotors of the cholesterol scam would classify all of this as anecdotal evidence which isn't reliable, and not supported by the science that proves the opposite.

Yet, in a study conducted by researchers at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York City who examined the coronary plaque buildup in 182 subjects who took cholesterol lowering drugs found an average INCREASE of 9.2% of plaque build up in spite of the successful lowering of the LDL cholesterol levels. They used electron beam tomography to measure the before and after plaque levels in the study group. The conclusion was that the accepted hypothesis that lowering the LDL cholesterol levels lowers artery plaque build up could not be supported by their findings.

This agrees with the assessment made by Dr. Mathias Rath who shows that cardiovascular disease is caused by LPa due to vitamin C deficiency, and not LDL serum blood levels.

Cardiovascular Disease (http://www.drrathresearch.org/lab_research/study_hd_solutionpuzzle_cardio.html - broken link)

There have been many studies that show an overall increase in death rates from heart disease associated with low cholesterol levels, and that those with higher cholesterol levels actually live longer.

The Benefits of High Cholesterol (http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/benefits_cholest.html - broken link)

This data taken alone would certainly be cause to question the use of statin drugs to lower cholesterol levels, even without the mounting evidence of the harmful effects of the drugs themselves in interrupting the natural production of cholesterol which is needed for the body. This need includes the proper functioning of the brain, which itself is 50% cholesterol by dry weight measurement. The well established side effects of neurological impact including memory loss, behavioral modifications, and depression should be a tremendous cause for concern, especially in the elderly who may be misdiagnosed with dementia or Alzheimer's disease when it could be statin drugs causing these difficulties.

Furthermore, claims that the established side effects of muscle degeneration associated with statin drug use doesn't include the heart because the heart is a different type of muscle from that of skeletal muscle (which has been the primary focus of such effects) are false.

The incidence of "statin cardiomyopathy" (heart muscle disease) is far more common than is currently reported, according to Dr. Peter Langsjoen of the East Texas Medical center in his paper which can be found on the FDA website http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dai...bit_A-vol1.pdf Along with his commentary titled "Statin Induced Cardiomyopathy" statin induced heart disease

In short, the depletion of coenzyme Q-10 by statin drug use which blocks production is associated with impairment of myocardial function, liver function, and myopathies including cardiomyopathy and congestive heart failure.

Dr. Langsjoen states that he has seen a frightening increase in heart failure secondary to statin drug use and that we are witnessing the greatest medical tragedy of all time with the medical establishment (Merck & Co,) knowingly creating life threatening nutrient deficiency (CO Q-10) in Millions of otherwise healthy people.

Unfortunately, long held medical myths are hard for many to give up, even when the evidence is overwhelming, both anecdotally and clinically. In a full scale blitz from pharmaceutical companies who's control isn't just isolated in the medical industry, but the agriculture industry too, we've been duped into actually harming our health with diet and drugs, under the guise of safeguarding our health.

What is even harder for some to grasp is that they've known this the whole time.

I'm sure there must be a "vaccine" for all of this on the drawing board now.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:09 PM
 
Location: South FL
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Quote:
On the surface, ALL of the anecdotal evidence shows that in analyzing the diets of various cultures around the world, those with the highest fat/cholesterol diets had the lowest rates of heart disease per capita. Countries with the highest saturated fat diets: Austria, France, Finland and Belgium had the lowest rate of deaths from heart disease, while the lowest fat diets: Georgia, Ukraine and Croatia had the highest death rates from heart disease.
I agree with the general point you are making about cholesterol, although I'm confused with the statement about Ukraine having the lowest fat diets. I'm from Ukraine myself and the reason for the highest death rates from heart disease, is not low fat diet. In fact Ukrainians love to eat fat, they eat something that's called "salo" which is pure fat from a pig, without even any actual meat on it.
The reason for their high death rates is the processed meat. The staple in an average Ukrainian man's diet is Kielbasa, which is pretty much the processed meat at it's worst. Additionally, there is a huge alcoholism problem in that republic which contributes to heart problems.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Jollyville, TX
4,780 posts, read 10,480,639 times
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I'm with you. My DH has genetically high cholesterol and his doctor has had him on statins for years. The more I read about them, the scarier it sounded. Although I'm not convinced he needs to lower his cholesterol, the doctor isn't going to be happy if it's too high. We are currently trying some natural remedies - Red Yeast Rice and plant sterols which cost about the same as the copay on his brand name statin drugs.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:30 PM
 
10,034 posts, read 6,363,869 times
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Originally Posted by Moonlady View Post
I'm with you. My DH has genetically high cholesterol and his doctor has had him on statins for years. The more I read about them, the scarier it sounded. Although I'm not convinced he needs to lower his cholesterol, the doctor isn't going to be happy if it's too high. We are currently trying some natural remedies - Red Yeast Rice and plant sterols which cost about the same as the copay on his brand name statin drugs.
My suggestion would be to do your own research and concentrate on being healthy rather than making your doctor happy? Does that not make sense?

Trusting others with your well-being isn't a very good idea.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:58 PM
 
10,034 posts, read 6,363,869 times
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Originally Posted by max's mama View Post
I agree with the general point you are making about cholesterol, although I'm confused with the statement about Ukraine having the lowest fat diets. I'm from Ukraine myself and the reason for the highest death rates from heart disease, is not low fat diet. In fact Ukrainians love to eat fat, they eat something that's called "salo" which is pure fat from a pig, without even any actual meat on it.
The reason for their high death rates is the processed meat. The staple in an average Ukrainian man's diet is Kielbasa, which is pretty much the processed meat at it's worst. Additionally, there is a huge alcoholism problem in that republic which contributes to heart problems.
I don't personally have any experience with the Ukrainian diet ... I just posted what was reported. But I don't believe you can take those two examples as definitive proof that the data is inaccurate, without comparing the other cultures side by side ? I mean, just because Ukrainians eat fat from a pig, does that automatically prove their entire diet overall contains more fat than say France, which I believe has been pretty well established as one of the leaders world wide in high fat diets ... cheeses, creams, animal fats, pastries, etc. etc. ? I don't know .. and it's just one data point.

Funny you should bring up the alcohol problem causing the heart problems ... because I was actually waiting for someone to point out that it was all of the red wine that the French drink like water that protects them from their high fat diets!

The fact is that moderate alcohol consumption has been shown to raise HDL, and lower LDL. But again, if the actual cause of CVD isn't high cholesterol, then its a moot point.

In any case, to say that acute alcoholism is detrimental to good health is an obvious fact. I dare say that anything that damages the liver (as excessive alcohol does) could very easily contribute to heart, and many other diseases, but maybe not in the way you might think.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:05 PM
 
Location: South FL
9,444 posts, read 16,433,751 times
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
I don't personally have any experience with the Ukrainian diet ... I just posted what was reported. But I don't believe you can take those two examples as definitive proof that the data is inaccurate, without comparing the other cultures side by side ? I mean, just because Ukrainians eat fat from a pig, does that automatically prove their entire diet overall contains more fat than say France, which I believe has been pretty well established as one of the leaders world wide in high fat diets ... cheeses, creams, animal fats, pastries, etc. etc. ? I don't know .. and it's just one data point.

Funny you should bring up the alcohol problem causing the heart problems ... because I was actually waiting for someone to point out that it was all of the red wine that the French drink like water that protects them from their high fat diets!

The fact is that moderate alcohol consumption has been shown to raise HDL, and lower LDL. But again, if the actual cause of CVD isn't high cholesterol, then its a moot point.

In any case, to say that acute alcoholism is detrimental to good health is an obvious fact. I dare say that anything that damages the liver (as excessive alcohol does) could very easily contribute to heart, and many other diseases, but maybe not in the way you might think.
You are right. I don't have a comparison between French diet and Ukrainian diet.

I'm curious, have you ever read "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A Price? He was a dentist/nutritional researcher who have researched many ancient tribes and their diets.
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Old 11-11-2009, 03:02 PM
 
10,034 posts, read 6,363,869 times
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Originally Posted by max's mama View Post
You are right. I don't have a comparison between French diet and Ukrainian diet.

I'm curious, have you ever read "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A Price? He was a dentist/nutritional researcher who have researched many ancient tribes and their diets.
No, I'm afraid I haven't, but I am familiar with the basic hypothesis of the work, which I believe most rational people would have a difficult time arguing. There is a lot of material out there that addresses nutrition in the similar vein, no doubt some of it based on that work. I'm personally a firm believer in nutrition being the primary prescription to better health, with little faith in pharmaceuticals providing much useful benefit except in special circumstances and as a last resort.

There is an underlying message in all of the nutritional studies I've looked closely at .. and that is .. everything we are told through the media and the medical/pharmaceutical establishment is exactly 180 degrees out from the truth. From pasteurizing dairy to wonder drugs that save .. to vaccines that prevent ... it's all about the money and the monopoly on health that is unwilling to share it's place with natural wellness, because THEY KNOW THEY CANNOT COMPETE. The big money is in sickness, not wellness because you can't patent a natural product.
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Old 11-11-2009, 03:23 PM
 
5,644 posts, read 12,304,280 times
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
On the surface, the question "does high cholesterol cause heart disease" seems to be an easy question to answer. Of course, the obvious answer is "yes", everyone knows that! But is it true?

Well, that depends on who you ask. Considering the fact that cholesterol reducing drugs (statins) are the most widely prescribed drug in the world today, accounting for some 20 Billion dollars in revenue annually, don't ask the pharmaceutical companies producing these drugs and expect an unbiased, honest answer. And don't expect the doctors and the lab technicians and the pharmacies to give any answer other than the one they have been trained to give.

Unfortunately, the reality is that the true science (not the pseudoscience promoting this scam) shows that high cholesterol has nothing to do with heart disease. The fact that cholesterol is found in the plaque buildup within the arteries is the circumstantial foundation for this belief that it's the cause, but as one researcher explained, that's like blaming firefighters for a fire simply because they are found at fires.

On the surface, ALL of the anecdotal evidence shows that in analyzing the diets of various cultures around the world, those with the highest fat/cholesterol diets had the lowest rates of heart disease per capita. Countries with the highest saturated fat diets: Austria, France, Finland and Belgium had the lowest rate of deaths from heart disease, while the lowest fat diets: Georgia, Ukraine and Croatia had the highest death rates from heart disease.

In one of the largest studies ever, 50 Million people were put on a restricted fat diet (rationing of food in England during WWII), and the death rate from heart disease doubled during that time.

In a Swedish study charting 30,000 men and women of middle age found no change in heart disease among the men with hight fat diets, while in the women, the high fat diet group had a drop in heart disease rates.

Studying the diets of the Japanese from the late 1950's to 1999 as their diets became more westernized, their protein intake doubled and their fat consumption increased 400%. The death rate from heart disease decreased by 50% and their stroke rate (highest in the world) dropped 7 fold.

Of course, the promotors of the cholesterol scam would classify all of this as anecdotal evidence which isn't reliable, and not supported by the science that proves the opposite.

Yet, in a study conducted by researchers at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York City who examined the coronary plaque buildup in 182 subjects who took cholesterol lowering drugs found an average INCREASE of 9.2% of plaque build up in spite of the successful lowering of the LDL cholesterol levels. They used electron beam tomography to measure the before and after plaque levels in the study group. The conclusion was that the accepted hypothesis that lowering the LDL cholesterol levels lowers artery plaque build up could not be supported by their findings.

This agrees with the assessment made by Dr. Mathias Rath who shows that cardiovascular disease is caused by LPa due to vitamin C deficiency, and not LDL serum blood levels.

Cardiovascular Disease (http://www.drrathresearch.org/lab_research/study_hd_solutionpuzzle_cardio.html - broken link)

There have been many studies that show an overall increase in death rates from heart disease associated with low cholesterol levels, and that those with higher cholesterol levels actually live longer.

The Benefits of High Cholesterol (http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/benefits_cholest.html - broken link)

This data taken alone would certainly be cause to question the use of statin drugs to lower cholesterol levels, even without the mounting evidence of the harmful effects of the drugs themselves in interrupting the natural production of cholesterol which is needed for the body. This need includes the proper functioning of the brain, which itself is 50% cholesterol by dry weight measurement. The well established side effects of neurological impact including memory loss, behavioral modifications, and depression should be a tremendous cause for concern, especially in the elderly who may be misdiagnosed with dementia or Alzheimer's disease when it could be statin drugs causing these difficulties.

Furthermore, claims that the established side effects of muscle degeneration associated with statin drug use doesn't include the heart because the heart is a different type of muscle from that of skeletal muscle (which has been the primary focus of such effects) are false.

The incidence of "statin cardiomyopathy" (heart muscle disease) is far more common than is currently reported, according to Dr. Peter Langsjoen of the East Texas Medical center in his paper which can be found on the FDA website http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dai...bit_A-vol1.pdf Along with his commentary titled "Statin Induced Cardiomyopathy" statin induced heart disease

In short, the depletion of coenzyme Q-10 by statin drug use which blocks production is associated with impairment of myocardial function, liver function, and myopathies including cardiomyopathy and congestive heart failure.

Dr. Langsjoen states that he has seen a frightening increase in heart failure secondary to statin drug use and that we are witnessing the greatest medical tragedy of all time with the medical establishment (Merck & Co,) knowingly creating life threatening nutrient deficiency (CO Q-10) in Millions of otherwise healthy people.

Unfortunately, long held medical myths are hard for many to give up, even when the evidence is overwhelming, both anecdotally and clinically. In a full scale blitz from pharmaceutical companies who's control isn't just isolated in the medical industry, but the agriculture industry too, we've been duped into actually harming our health with diet and drugs, under the guise of safeguarding our health.

What is even harder for some to grasp is that they've known this the whole time.

I'm sure there must be a "vaccine" for all of this on the drawing board now.

More lies, half truths and absolute rubbish....


Give it up....

You claim the science behind the cholesterol theory is "pseudoscience" and then back up your claims with an article from the "Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine" and the Weston Price Foundation???

Orthomolecular Medicine couldn't be pseudoscience....could it!?

"Available scientific evidence does not support the use of orthomolecular therapy for most of the conditions for which it is promoted."
ACS :: Orthomolecular Medicine


Truly funny stuff..

Unfortunately for you "true" science has established unequivocally the link between heart disease and high cholesterol.

You also really need to get off the "statins cause cardiac muscle degeneration wagon" it just doesn't fly and you will never have the evidence to prove your misguided theory.

It just isn't there....skeletal muscle is involved, not cardiac muscle. Also the incidence of of skeletal muscle damage is MUCH lower than the anti-statin crowd would ever care to admit.

JAMA -- Abstract: Statin-Associated Myopathy, April 2, 2003, Thompson et al. 289 (13): 1681


If your overall position is tenable, certainly members of well respected and highly educated medical groups, associations and journals will agree with you.....right?

American College of Cardiology

".....The major and independent risk factors for CHD are cigarette smoking of any amount, elevated blood pressure, elevated serum total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C), low serum high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), diabetes mellitus, and advancing age "
AHA/ACC Scientific Statement:Assessment of Cardiovascular Risk by Use of Multiple-Risk-Factor Assessment Equations

Whoops....not so much I guess.

American Heart Association

"Elevated low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C) is a major cause of coronary heart disease (CHD). The relationship between LDL-C and CHD risk is continuous over a broad range of LDL-C levels: The higher the LDL-C level, the greater the CHD risk."
Managing Abnormal Blood Lipids: A Collaborative Approach -- Fletcher et al. 112 (20): 3184 -- Circulation

Hmm..not them either

[b]National Heart Lung and Blood Institute[/B]/ Framingham Heart Study
"Over the years, careful monitoring of the Framingham Study population has led to the identification of the major CVD risk factors - high blood pressure, high blood cholesterol, smoking, obesity, diabetes, and physical inactivity - as well as a great deal of valuable information on the effects of related factors such as blood triglyceride and HDL cholesterol levels,...."
History of the Framingham Heart Study

Well, guess we can't count them either...

US Department of Health and Human Services

"consistent evidence from long-term, prospective studies indicates that high levels of TC and LDL-C and low levels of HDL-C are important risk factors for coronary heart disease, the leading cause of mortality and morbidity in the United States. The risk for coronary heart disease increases with increasing levels of TC and LDL-C, and declining levels of HDL-C, in a continuous and graded fashion with no clear threshold of risk. According to National Center for Health Statistics data from 1988 to 1994, 17.5% of men and 20% of women aged 20 to 74 years had high levels of TC (240 mg/dL or greater)."

Screening for Lipid Disorders: Recommendations and Rationale (http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/ajpmsuppl/lipidrr.htm#section2 - broken link)

Man, this is harder than I thought to find folks who might agree with you..

I guess you must just be smarter than all these folks
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Old 11-11-2009, 03:52 PM
 
Location: most beautiful place ever
1,869 posts, read 3,828,975 times
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Mod cut: off topic
Excellent post Texas, couldnt rep you anymore.

Last edited by Viralmd; 11-11-2009 at 04:55 PM..
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:47 PM
 
10,034 posts, read 6,363,869 times
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Originally Posted by stoymonkey View Post
How is asking what cholesterol does in the body off the topic of cholesterol causing heart disease?
Seems that cholesterol has a very important roll in the body, since the liver produces it. The liver also produces fat ... "saturated fat" no less.

The posted link earlier, "The Benefits of High Cholesterol" addresses your question to a degree .. by only so far as it concerns heart disease. And this is an important point given that modern medicine routinely focuses on a single disease or symptom ... postulates a theory of cause .. and then takes an action (usually pharmaceutical) to disrupt or alter the natural response without regard to the secondary implications or negative effects of that action. One could say this is a rather reckless way of practicing medicine ... but I guess they don't call it "practicing" for nothing.

Not often a point of discussion or consideration in the medical establishment's war on cholesterol (I call it that because it is not a war against heart disease per se, or they'd pay more attention to the heart damage caused by the anti-cholesterol drugs being used) is the important roll of cholesterol and neurological function.

And the double talk never stops ... even the recent research showing that statin drugs that inhibit cholesterol production in the liver also disrupt the production in the brain which can have severe neurological effects. Of course, at the very end, the researcher includes the general advice that reducing cholesterol is good and you should follow your doctor's advice .. with the assumption that you're not suffering neurological problems and doctor already knows that the statins effect brain function.

Double talk.
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