Was Cleopatra VII "black" or part "black?" (60's, economy)

[Neuling]

It is way more complicated than that. For instance one has to distinguish between mtDNA (i.e. passed down via the mother) and y chromosomes (i.e. passed down via the father).
After the last ice age Europe was repopulated from the south, to where populations had withdrawn. Genetically speaking, the Iberian peninsula is the oldest region in Europe. From it R1b spread towards the NE, which explains why its percentage decreases the further you get to the NE, especially to the East. Interestingly R1b is also very strong in Sudan, where it reaches 40% among the Hausa, that is more than among Germans.
But you probably know that haplogroup studies are very very complex and far from finished. Just from reading on this page one gets an idea how complicated it all is.

80% of European Y chromosomes come from the Middle East, whereas most European mitochondrial DNA comes from ancient local hunter gatherer populations. The male carriers of those Y chromosomes spread via the Mediterranean during the Neolithic. It is interesting to note that the further away neolithic European cultures were from the Middle East, the younger they were. When the farmers from the Middle East reached the western edge of the Mediterranean, they settled on the Iberian peninsula and Northern Africa at the same time. But I doubt those were the Berbers, after all the Berbers had been living in North Africa for tens of thousands of years.

I don't agree that original Iberians did not have anything to do with Berbers (who genetically speaking are a mess ). There have been migrations across Gibraltar throughout history, in both directions. The African haplogroup E for instance can be found in southern Europe at frequencies of up to 25%.

Anyway, Indo-Europeans were a very young arrival on the European stage, just an add-on to the old established European people.
And Celts were indeed peoples, no idea what makes you think they were not. Scientists know pretty accurately when Celts arrived on the peninsula for instance.

[kovert]

Originally Posted by Ultralight

Cleopatra was Greek but the closest living relatives to those people who founded the ancient Egyptian kingdom are today to be found in horn of africa.

Indeed, in order to understand ancient Egypt, one should also learn about the cultures and peoples of the Sahara and the Horn (these (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/2183271100/in/set-72157603646908778/ - broken link) guys look (http://www.flickr.com/photos/boaz/164594985/ - broken link) like they come out of some hieroglyphics).

But all too often people seem to overlook that modern (http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2930327283/ - broken link) Nile country inhabitants are the closest descendants of the ancient Nile country inhabitants in terms of ancestry and culture.

And to add my 2 cents to the topic, Cleo is known to be of Greek speaking Macedonian descent.

The ancient Greco-Romans noted the physical characteristics of the various peoples they interacted with and if Cleo was dark skinned, it would have been noted.

PS: Berber is of the Afrasan family of language which most likely originated somewhere between the Nubian Nile Valley and the Horn of Africa (p. 35) or further east in the Sahara (p. 66-67).

In terms of physical anthropology, both metric (due to long term evolution in a particular environment, p.139-140) and non-metric (due to descent rather than environment, p. 148-149, 152-154), Saharan, Nile Valley and Horn Africans are more similar and related to each other than to any other group.

It should be noted that the veiled Berbers of the Sahara speak not only a language with less Arabic influence, they also maintained a form of ancient Libyan writing (p. 208-209).

The veiled Saharan Berbers in terms of biological traits, compare very well with some of the oldest prehistoric (Capsians) and historic (Garamantes) peoples of Northwestern Africa (p. 206) and with northeastern Africans (p. 146).

The Berbers (albeit this term like Columbus's Indians, was not a term these people used as a common name but it stuck anyways) are an African people like other northern and eastern African peoples like the Nile Valley and Horn peoples.

Of course they have absorbed various non-African peoples and many have used Canaanite (Phoenician, though this is again a term applied to peoples that did correspond to what the people called themselves), Latin, Greek and Arabic as their primary language throughout history, but this does not negate their (and this goes for the Nile peoples as well) African and specifically Saharan and Horn African origins.

[Paquito Chocolatero]

Neuling

Iberians are the descendants of the aboriginal Spanish population. The other aboriginal inhabitants of Spain were called Celtic-Iberians by Romans because they had a Celtic language (but were not a different ethnic people) and wrote using the Iberian alphabet.

Iberians, and all Homo Sapiens living in Spain during the last 35.000 years came from the East. Simply put, they could not cross the strait. The first ships or sailing crafts in Spain arrived 3.000 years ago, the Phoenicians.

The African origin of Iberians was a common theory discarded by genetic evidence. Of course, there's anecdotical presence of Lybian-Phoenicians and Berbers in some regions of Spain due to wars and invasions.

[Paquito Chocolatero]

Kovert

There are physical descriptions of Cleopatra, and I think there are sculptures. I recall that I read that she was very ugly, with a very large and bulbous nose and she was bald as a melon, she used wigs.

[Neuling]

Originally Posted by Paquito Chocolatero

Neuling

Iberians are the descendants of the aboriginal Spanish population. The other aboriginal inhabitants of Spain were called Celtic-Iberians by Romans because they had a Celtic language (but were not a different ethnic people) and wrote using the Iberian alphabet.

Iberians, and all Homo Sapiens living in Spain during the last 35.000 years came from the East. Simply put, they could not cross the strait. The first ships or sailing crafts in Spain arrived 3.000 years ago, the Phoenicians.

The African origin of Iberians was a common theory discarded by genetic evidence. Of course, there's anecdotical presence of Lybian-Phoenicians and Berbers in some regions of Spain due to wars and invasions.

The othern way round, Spanish are a mixed people partly based on Iberians (who were among the original inhabitants of the peninsula), but also on Celts, Germanics, and others, who have all fused during the past 2 millennia.

The Celtic cultue and languages were brought to the peninsula by (indeed physical) Celtic tribes, who arrived from Central Europe during the first millennium bc. They later gradually fused with the locals, mainly the Iberians, the product of which is referred to as Celtiberians.

Of course they could cross the straight, it was even narrower during the ice age. And people there had boats for many thousand years before the first Phoenicians arrived on the scene, after all those along the coast lived from fishing. The very neolitic farmers who came to Southern Europe and northern Africa from the Middle East, already partly spread using boats. Actually some haplotype percentage distributions such as hg E1a suggest that people did not only cross the Mediterranean at Gibraltar, but also to Southern Italy and at other locations.

Regarding the Berbers there is also a theory that they used to have a lot of European slaves a long time ago, who could have been absorbed genetically over time, which would explain the varied appearance among different Berber groups.

[joey2000]

Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch

How DARE you go against social fashion?!?!?!?!?

Originally Posted by Neuling

Of course she was not black, all that Afrocentrism recently sounds so desperate.

Originally Posted by Dd714

More political-correctness BS.

Exactly. Welcome to America. :gag:

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Of course Cleopatra was black. Next you'll be trying to tell us that "Abe" Lincoln wasn't Jewish.

lmao

And don't forget: John Wayne was gay! All the old actors were gay, they just had to hide it!

[Ultralight]

Originally Posted by kovert

Indeed, in order to understand ancient Egypt, one should also learn about the cultures and peoples of the Sahara and the Horn (these (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/2183271100/in/set-72157603646908778/ - broken link) guys look (http://www.flickr.com/photos/boaz/164594985/ - broken link) like they come out of some hieroglyphics).

But all too often people seem to overlook that modern (http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2930327283/ - broken link) Nile country inhabitants are the closest descendants of the ancient Nile country inhabitants in terms of ancestry and culture.

And to add my 2 cents to the topic, Cleo is known to be of Greek speaking Macedonian descent.

The ancient Greco-Romans noted the physical characteristics of the various peoples they interacted with and if Cleo was dark skinned, it would have been noted.

PS: Berber is of the Afrasan family of language which most likely originated somewhere between the Nubian Nile Valley and the Horn of Africa (p. 35) or further east in the Sahara (p. 66-67).

In terms of physical anthropology, both metric (due to long term evolution in a particular environment, p.139-140) and non-metric (due to descent rather than environment, p. 148-149, 152-154), Saharan, Nile Valley and Horn Africans are more similar and related to each other than to any other group.

It should be noted that the veiled Berbers of the Sahara speak not only a language with less Arabic influence, they also maintained a form of ancient Libyan writing (p. 208-209).

The veiled Saharan Berbers in terms of biological traits, compare very well with some of the oldest prehistoric (Capsians) and historic (Garamantes) peoples of Northwestern Africa (p. 206) and with northeastern Africans (p. 146).

The Berbers (albeit this term like Columbus's Indians, was not a term these people used as a common name but it stuck anyways) are an African people like other northern and eastern African peoples like the Nile Valley and Horn peoples.

Of course they have absorbed various non-African peoples and many have used Canaanite (Phoenician, though this is again a term applied to peoples that did correspond to what the people called themselves), Latin, Greek and Arabic as their primary language throughout history, but this does not negate their (and this goes for the Nile peoples as well) African and specifically Saharan and Horn African origins.

The ancient egyptians oriogen is in what is todays sahara desert.

[Neuling]

This thread highlights the problem with races. The Mediterranean has always been an extremely mixed region with endless migrations. Unless they find her DNA and run an analysis, nobody can say for sure what her specific ethnic mix was.

[Paquito Chocolatero]

Neuling

I was referring to this study, I believe it comes from the University of Barcelona, and another similar study carried out by American and Catalan researchers.

As to the influence of Germanic, Celtics (if there was a Celtic invasion and not cultural diffusion) and Berberiscs in Spanish gene pool, such influence is testimonial.

The most important influence to the common genetic pool of Spain (already well consolidated 3.000 years ago) is Jewish influence, but I believe that researchers are counting as Sephardic the enormous colony of Greco-Syrians living in Spain during Roman times that became entirely assimilated.

I don't think that Mediterranean areas in Western Europe part the Roman Empire are as ethnically diverse as the unprotected areas of the Europe. The areas beyond the Rhine and Danube were constantly invaded by slavics, mongols, turkmen and Germanics (a confederation of different ethnic groups that included mongols (etzel) that were kept away from the Mare Nostrum.

As to the presence of European genetic markers in NW Africa, quite easy to explain. North Africa, Tingitania, were thriving Roman provinces with many Roman settlers from every region fo the Roman empire.




High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Variation Shows a Sharp Discontinuity and Limited Gene Flow between Northwestern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula

Elena Bosch, Francesc Calafell, David Comas, Peter J. Oefner, Peter A. Underhill, and Jaume Bertranpetit

In the present study we have analyzed 44 Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms in population samples from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, which allowed us to place each chromosome unequivocally in a phylogenetic tree based on >150 polymorphisms. The most striking results are that contemporary NW African and Iberian populations were found to have originated from distinctly different patrilineages and that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow. In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool. In comparison, 78% of contemporary Iberian Y chromosomes originated in an Upper Paleolithic expansion from western Asia, along the northern rim of the Mediterranean basin. Smaller contributions to these gene pools (constituting 13% of Y chromosomes in NW Africa and 10% of Y chromosomes in Iberia) came from the Middle East during the Neolithic and, during subsequent gene flow, from Sub-Saharan to NW Africa. Finally, bidirectional gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar has been detected: the genetic contribution of European Y chromosomes to the NW African gene pool is estimated at 4%, and NW African populations may have contributed 7% of Iberian Y chromosomes. The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The high-resolution analysis of the Y chromosome allows us to separate successive migratory components and to precisely quantify each historical layer.

[kovert]

Originally Posted by Paquito Chocolatero

The African origin of Iberians was a common theory discarded by genetic evidence. Of course, there's anecdotical presence of Lybian-Phoenicians and Berbers in some regions of Spain due to wars and invasions.

Ah, I see you've read Bosch's work as well.

"We have found quite clear genetic differentiation between
Iberians and NW Africans in several of the analysis presented.
Both groups of populations seem to belong to two different
genetic pools. However, it should be noted that they are
closer to each other than to non-European groups, as
depicted by the large genetic distance to African-Americans.
This observation is compatible with the hypothesis suggested
elsewhere.19 NW Africa was peopled in the Upper Paleolithic
era with anatomically modern humans roughly at the same
time that the same human groups colonised Europe. Subsequently,
the ancestors of the Berbers differentiated in situ
before the Neolithic wave of advance,20 and this demic
diffusion, which seemed to have a large impact on the
genetic make up of Europeans,21 may have had little impact
in NW Africa."

Originally Posted by Neuling

The very neolitic farmers who came to Southern Europe and northern Africa from the Middle East, already partly spread using boats. Actually some haplotype percentage distributions such as hg E1a suggest that people did not only cross the Mediterranean at Gibraltar, but also to Southern Italy and at other locations.

Regarding the Berbers there is also a theory that they used to have a lot of European slaves a long time ago, who could have been absorbed genetically over time, which would explain the varied appearance among different Berber groups.

The above quote from Bosch is why I don't believe the neolithic wave that spread from southwestern Asia reached north Africa.

Also if you have read Camps essay on the origins of the Berbers in Cambridge, there is little strong evidence for the origins of the 3 African Neolithics (Mediterranean neo due to the descendants of the Oranians, erroneously known as iberomaurasians; Saharan neo due probably early Nilo-Saharan speakers along with some Afrasans from the Sudanese Nile, perhaps some Capsians as well; and finally the reputed ancestral Berber, the Capsian neo, which Camps and others belived were influenced by the older neolithics of the Sahara and the Mediterranean) west of the Nile from non-African sources.

The seeds of plant and animal manipulation appear among the inhabitants of coastal Northwestern Africa and the Nile River (see p. 149 for barley and 136 and 150 for sheep) Ehret believes these ideas along with the ancestors of the Semitic speakers spread from northeastern Africa into southwestern Asia, giving rise to the Mushabians and the later Natufians (see p. 38).

Regarding the Berbers, yes Euro slaves were an addition to the genetic component, but one must not overlook the descendants of the Berbers from Iberia and Sicily.

Arabs were a tiny aristocratic minority and most of the non-Euro Muslim population of Iberia (and possibly Sicily, albeit I have not found much on muslim ruled Sicily) were the descendants of Berbers, often with Iberian and other Euro mothers (see p. 42).

It must be noted that the great historian ibn Khaldun considered himself an Arab but his family and that of many other Iberian (and even Maghrebi) Arabs and Berbers had Iberian mothers.

Leo Africanus likewise distinguishes Arabians from Africans but does NOT distinguish the Moors of Iberia from those of northwestern Africa.

Originally Posted by Paquito Chocolatero

Kovert

There are physical descriptions of Cleopatra, and I think there are sculptures. I recall that I read that she was very ugly, with a very large and bulbous nose and she was bald as a melon, she used wigs.

I saw a doc on Cleo from one of the History/Disc channels and it claimed that only a coin as one of the few likenesses of the last Cleopatra.

I doubt she would have been known as a seductress, if she needed a bag over her head while love making.

Originally Posted by Neuling

This thread highlights the problem with races. The Mediterranean has always been an extremely mixed region with endless migrations. Unless they find her DNA and run an analysis, nobody can say for sure what her specific ethnic mix was.

Well, I have often read there is only one human race, I believe human groups can be traced throughout history.

Linguistics, studies on physical anthropology (both metrical and non-metrical), genetics, archaeology can be used as markers to determine populations.