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Old 06-26-2010, 09:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Probably they were of Berber origin, among some Berber peoples red hair is as frequent as in Europe, especially among the Kabyle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Regarding the Berbers, yes Euro slaves were an addition to the genetic component, but one must not overlook the descendants of the Berbers from Iberia and Sicily.

Arabs were a tiny aristocratic minority and most of the non-Euro Muslim population of Iberia (and possibly Sicily, albeit I have not found much on muslim ruled Sicily) were the descendants of Berbers, often with Iberian and other Euro mothers (see p. 42).

It must be noted that the great historian ibn Khaldun considered himself an Arab but his family and that of many other Iberian (and even Maghrebi) Arabs and Berbers had Iberian mothers.

Leo Africanus likewise distinguishes Arabians from Africans but does NOT distinguish the Moors of Iberia from those of northwestern Africa.
See p. 53 specifically about al-Rahman physical features as an example of the Euro descent of many Arabs and likewise Berbers, though socially, they were still considered Arabs or Berbers.

And getting back to Essence and Cleo's ancestry, that article, the person who wrote it and the editor who allowed it to be published, themselves need a history lesson.

Last edited by kovert; 06-26-2010 at 09:21 PM..
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Old 06-27-2010, 07:35 AM
 
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Spain did not become a Muslim country because a few thousand arabs and moors and their gothic allies defeated Rodrigo or Roderick in the year 711 at the battle of Guadalete.

No way a few thousand men could conquer a country with 8.000.000 inhabitants in 15 years. No, it was a MASS CONVERSION.

Muslims made truces with the governing Goths and Goth governors became Emirs in many instances. Most Goths were Arrians and they didn't have any quarrel against becoming Muslims. The description of many Emirs of Al Andalusia correspond to Gothic people.

The Hispanorroman population was more that happy with the new rulers and the new religion, far more humane and civilized that Gothic and Christian rule. Christians were allowed to retain their faith and were only required to pay a special tax. Jews were respected and not slaughtered. Goths loved to slaughter Jews and Jews were the ones that contacted Muslims to invade Spain.

Spanish population in Al Andalus was not different from today, 99,9 % of the population were Mozarabes (Dimmis, Christains living under Islam) and Muladies (Christians that adopted the Muslim faith).

The Aristocracy was Arab from Syria, Irab and Yemen, they were a handful. There was an army of berbers in constant strife against Arabs, so Arabs and Berbers resorted to Christians mercenaries from the north.

As to the so-called "moriscos" or moorish that were expelled from Spain during 1609, most of those moorish were Spanish, ethnic Spanish that spoke Spanish and had Spanish last names. They were forced to leave for Morroco, a country that was totally alien to them and they are still there. Maybe some had some remote Arab or Berber lineage, but after 30 generation of intermarriage with Iberians, they were Spanish. The Spanish TV made a special program about the descendants of "moriscos", they are in command of the Maroccan economy.

Arab aristocracy did not have any quarrels against marrying christians, in fact it was part of their policy, so in a couple of generations Arabs in Al andalus were totally diferent from their counterparts in the Arab World, and they even fought alongside Christians against Almohads and Almoravids, fanatic Muslims waves from North Africa.

Last edited by Paquito Chocolatero; 06-27-2010 at 07:53 AM..
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Georgia
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The Ptolemy family tree was Greek,so I'll say greek.
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Old 06-27-2010, 05:07 PM
 
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No, Macedonian. Cleo was Macedonian.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paquito Chocolatero View Post
Spain did not become a Muslim country because a few thousand arabs and moors and their gothic allies defeated Rodrigo or Roderick in the year 711 at the battle of Guadalete.

No way a few thousand men could conquer a country with 8.000.000 inhabitants in 15 years. No, it was a MASS CONVERSION.

Muslims made truces with the governing Goths and Goth governors became Emirs in many instances. Most Goths were Arrians and they didn't have any quarrel against becoming Muslims. The description of many Emirs of Al Andalusia correspond to Gothic people.

The Hispanorroman population was more that happy with the new rulers and the new religion, far more humane and civilized that Gothic and Christian rule. Christians were allowed to retain their faith and were only required to pay a special tax. Jews were respected and not slaughtered. Goths loved to slaughter Jews and Jews were the ones that contacted Muslims to invade Spain.

Spanish population in Al Andalus was not different from today, 99,9 % of the population were Mozarabes (Dimmis, Christains living under Islam) and Muladies (Christians that adopted the Muslim faith).

The Aristocracy was Arab from Syria, Irab and Yemen, they were a handful. There was an army of berbers in constant strife against Arabs, so Arabs and Berbers resorted to Christians mercenaries from the north.

As to the so-called "moriscos" or moorish that were expelled from Spain during 1609, most of those moorish were Spanish, ethnic Spanish that spoke Spanish and had Spanish last names. They were forced to leave for Morroco, a country that was totally alien to them and they are still there. Maybe some had some remote Arab or Berber lineage, but after 30 generation of intermarriage with Iberians, they were Spanish. The Spanish TV made a special program about the descendants of "moriscos", they are in command of the Maroccan economy.

Arab aristocracy did not have any quarrels against marrying christians, in fact it was part of their policy, so in a couple of generations Arabs in Al andalus were totally diferent from their counterparts in the Arab World, and they even fought alongside Christians against Almohads and Almoravids, fanatic Muslims waves from North Africa.
Well for the most part, there is not much disagreement with what I previously posted.

Paquito, as I stated the Berbers, were the largest Muslim group of non-Euro origins in Iberia (and possibly Sicily) but I've always wondered about the relationships between the Berber communities on the two sides of the Mediterranean. Both before the Reconquest and particularly after.

I wondered how many Iberian Berbers maintained their languages and what was their relationship between them and particularly the berbers of the mountains and the deserts once they were expunged from Iberia.

Ibn Khaldun and Leo Africanus wrote that the Andalusis settled along most of coastal northwest Africa from the Moroccan Atlantic to the Tripoli Mediterranean.

I've wondered how many of these refugees were of Berber affiliation, di they still speak Berber and what were their relations with the North African tribes their forefathers came from.

It would probably be best that if you decide to answer, you did it here, rather than this thread.
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:46 AM
 
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Kovert

There was a very interesting program on TV2, Spanish Televisión, about present day situation of "Moriscos" (Expelled muslims) in Morocco during the early years of the XVIIth Century.

It was quite curious to see that many bear Castillian last names or arabized Castillian names, and that for centuries, they called themselves Castillian. One generation after the expulsion, they wrote to the Spanish King saying that they were loyal Castillian subjects and that they wanted to return, and they offered to advance a large sum of money for their return.

Most of them spoke Spanish when they arrived and didn't have the least notion about Islam, since they had been converse for generations.

They are definitively different from Moroccans since they are for the most part Ethnic Spanish, many are fair haired and have Spanish features.

There are for the most part, quite well off. Some own houses in their former city, Granada.

The berbers in Spain, those that arrived during the VIIIth and XIXth Century, were very few and were treated like scum by Arabs. There were frequent revolts, and both parts had to resort to Christian mercenaries, so in Cordoba Arabs and Berbers were just a tiny minority surrounded by Christain mercenaries, dimmis, converted Christans and Jews.

By then, Al Andalus was a extremely rich place that attracted Christians from all over Europe and from Northen Spain that were paid in silver coins (there were no coins in most Europe, and certainly not in North Spain and Catalonia). For example, in Catalonia the "common currency" at that time was the "bear ham" and they only reliable commodity was your sword.

For example, when Almanzor or Almansoor, the "protector of the Caliph", from a dinasty from Yemen, made many "razzias" against Christian territory and brought many prisoners to obtain a ransom, but he soon noticed that the "hostages" not only did not want to return to barbaric north, but they wanted to work for him, to fight for him, so Al Andalus ended up becoming a place similar to Germany during the 60's or similar to New York, with the most advanced University in Europe.

Muslim called "Francs" anybody coming from Catalonia, since Carolingians conquered the land down to Barcelona, and the called "Slavs" to everybody coming from Europe.

The relationship between berbers of the two coasts was difficult, first place, after two or three generations there were berbers no more since they had Christian mothers. Even the same Caliph had a Basque mother. At the end, the Caliphat was always controlled by some Christian women from the harem.

Spanish muslims were very "liberal", they drank wine and loved poetry, they had a superb University, the most advanced in Europe, with students from all over Europe...and North Africans tended to be zealots, hence the waves of Almoravid and Almohads..

Last edited by Paquito Chocolatero; 06-29-2010 at 06:28 AM..
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Harrisburg, PA
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A myth. Perhaps they are mixing Cleopatra up with the native, ancient Egyptian queens?

Another myth is that Cleopatra was a beautiful woman. Actually, she was not.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:00 AM
 
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I remember that Nazis used to say that Jesus was the son of a Roman Soldier of Teutonic extraction....
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
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The Spaniards drove the Mussulmen out of Spain when they found out the Moslems were really the Muslims.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:59 PM
 
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I have more of an issue of Nefertiti being portrayed as white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissShona View Post
A myth. Perhaps they are mixing Cleopatra up with the native, ancient Egyptian queens?

Another myth is that Cleopatra was a beautiful woman. Actually, she was not.
That irritates me to no end. Its as if saying all historically well known women were just great beauties, and nothing more.
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