Was Cleopatra VII "black" or part "black?" (Rome, greatest)

[city414]

Originally Posted by Ultralight

Cleopatra was greek not african .
The founders of ancient egypt where Hamites closely related to todays east african people.

hence african, theres different types of black africans and there were few empires of africans that crashed leading to the slave trade

MALI
GHANA
SONGHAY

[2cold]

I saw that there was a previous thread on the subject of the race of the original Egyptians that went on and on.
The Egyptians did not see themselves as black, according to their own artwork. they were in all probability similar in skin color to the people who live there now, a sort of mixed look, with darker skin, hair and eyes.
There were black people in ancient Egypt, people who came up from the sub Sahara, they were part of the Egyptian empire.
Egyptians painted themselves either lighter or darker, but not as dark brown or black. I don't believe they would have classed themselves as being white or black, but Egyptian. As I understand it, they still consider themselves as neither white or black, but Egyptian.
I don't believe there are lines drawn in the world where on this side of the line were only black people, and on this side only white and over here only yellow or red.
I get the feeling that many people think that after the "whites" left Africa, believed to be the cradle of humanity, gates were put up and only "black" people lived there until the whites came back and "invaded".
If you're going to classify people as belonging to 3 basic races, keep in mind that some people who are classified as Caucasian have very dark skin that makes some people think they're more black and hardly white at all.
I guess the ancient whites had too much get up and go, going around exploring and conquering people, causing all sorts of problems. of course, it was colder where many of them settled, and they didn't have resorts with beaches they could go to. They weren't very laid back were they?

This actually does make sense, you know.

[kovert]

Paquito have you come across Maya Schatzmiller's essay "The Legacy of the Andalusian Berbers"?

I have been searching for it for some time now to no avail.

I hope it is available in English and I would appreciate anyone's help in locating this text.

Originally Posted by 2cold

I saw that there was a previous thread on the subject of the race of the original Egyptians that went on and on.
The Egyptians did not see themselves as black, according to their own artwork. they were in all probability similar in skin color to the people who live there now, a sort of mixed look, with darker skin, hair and eyes.

Egyptians painted themselves either lighter or darker, but not as dark brown or black. I don't believe they would have classed themselves as being white or black, but Egyptian. As I understand it, they still consider themselves as neither white or black, but Egyptian.

Actually check out Wildung's essay in this text. Egyptians often depicted themselves no different from those of the Nubian portion of the Nile.

And even when they did, the reddish brown color of the males were used likewise for the people of Punt, most likely located in the Horn of Africa (between coastal Ethiopia and Somalia).

The yellowish color of the females was likewise used for Libyans.

And as I posted previously the Egyptians are closest to other Saharan and northeast African peoples in terms of physical anthropology.

[2cold]

Egyptians often depicted themselves no different from those of the Nubian portion of the Nile.

Question is, where those depicted thus ethnically Nubian?

The only point I want to get across is that there was no line - over there white, over here black. Just because their home was Africa it didn't mean they had to be black, and it didn't mean that they were descended from white invaders because they weren't black.

that's all

[kovert]

Originally Posted by 2cold

Question is, where those depicted thus ethnically Nubian?

Do you consider Narmer, who most Egyptologists credit with 1st founding a united dynastic Egypt, "ethnically Nubian".

To be honest, the term Nubian as a tribal/ethnic group doesn't appear until the later greco-roman era. I was using the Nubian Nile to designate the area from the 1st cataract below Aswan to where the Nile separates near the Khartoum area, meaning I'm using Nubian in a geographic sense rather than an ethno-linguistic sense.

Ever since Badarian times (5000 B.C.E.) there was very little difference between upper Egypt and those further south all the way down to the Khartoum area (see p. 126) and beyond (see p. 105).

The A-Group kingdom of Ta Seti extended from south of modern El Kab in southern Egypt to a little south of the 2nd Cataract. Ta Seti also used hieroglyphics and the portion of Ta Seti above the 1st Cataract remained the 1st district of Egypt throughout its history.

A good text I recommend is this one by Renee Friedman as it demonstrates the Saharan desert origins of the Badarians along with the A and C Group Nubians.

Okay, so you write this.

Originally Posted by 2cold

The only point I want to get across is that there was no line - over there white, over here black. Just because their home was Africa it didn't mean they had to be black, and it didn't mean that they were descended from white invaders because they weren't black.

that's all

And earlier you wrote this:

Originally Posted by 2cold

The Egyptians did not see themselves as black, according to their own artwork. they were in all probability similar in skin color to the people who live there now, a sort of mixed look, with darker skin, hair and eyes.

There were black people in ancient Egypt, people who came up from the sub Sahara, they were part of the Egyptian empire.

If you're going to classify people as belonging to 3 basic races, keep in mind that some people who are classified as Caucasian have very dark skin that makes some people think they're more black and hardly white at all.

Okay, now I personally am a proponent of there is only one human race and the differences in features pertain to different environments people settled and remained in over thousands of year, just like there is diversity among dogs but they are all of the same race as they can all breed with each other and produce offspring that are fertile. Therefore categories like black, white, red brown and yellow are primarily social in origin.

But it seems that you go by there are 3 different races at least.

Okay now that's covered since you state that very dark skin is not a criteria for being "black", how do you define black then?

And what differentiates a "very dark skin Caucasian" from a "black"?

[city414]

Originally Posted by 2cold

I saw that there was a previous thread on the subject of the race of the original Egyptians that went on and on.
The Egyptians did not see themselves as black, according to their own artwork. they were in all probability similar in skin color to the people who live there now, a sort of mixed look, with darker skin, hair and eyes.
There were black people in ancient Egypt, people who came up from the sub Sahara, they were part of the Egyptian empire.
Egyptians painted themselves either lighter or darker, but not as dark brown or black. I don't believe they would have classed themselves as being white or black, but Egyptian.

THE PEOPLE you claim as sub suharan african wouldnt black either because they didnt callthemselves that. how can you apply todays racial standards to then.... and to say that all blacks live below the desert or come from sub suharan africa you have got to be kidding yourself the mali empire extended to the north

why would egyptians see themselves as a label that didnt exist, the egyptians are africans the people who live there now are the arabs who invaded africa in the 8th century

[city414]

Originally Posted by MissShona

A myth. Perhaps they are mixing Cleopatra up with the native, ancient Egyptian queens?

Another myth is that Cleopatra was a beautiful woman. Actually, she was not.

kinda like pochahontas who was kinda not beautiful as the cartoons make her out to be

[Neuling]

Originally Posted by city414

THE PEOPLE you claim as sub suharan african wouldnt black either because they didnt callthemselves that. how can you apply todays racial standards to then.... and to say that all blacks live below the desert or come from sub suharan africa you have got to be kidding yourself the mali empire extended to the north

why would egyptians see themselves as a label that didnt exist, the egyptians are africans the people who live there now are the arabs who invaded africa in the 8th century

Nah, that's not correct. Modern Egyptians are overwhelmingly the same ethnicity they have been ever since the stone age. The Arabization of North Africa was largely a political, religious and linguistic phenomenon.

[kovert]

Originally Posted by city414

THE PEOPLE you claim as sub suharan african wouldnt black either because they didnt callthemselves that. how can you apply todays racial standards to then.... and to say that all blacks live below the desert or come from sub suharan africa you have got to be kidding yourself the mali empire extended to the north

why would egyptians see themselves as a label that didnt exist, the egyptians are africans the people who live there now are the arabs who invaded africa in the 8th century

That's not exactly accurate.

Brace did an excellent study that shows modern Nile Valley (both Sa'idi/Upper Egypt and Nubia) and Horn Africans are closest to each other and earlier populations in the region for the last 10,000 years.

The Arab invaders of the 7th century were unlikely to have caused a major demographic shift.

Immigration during from the 26th Dynasty (with Hellenes/Greeks and Canaanites/Phoenicians) Ottoman Turks, and other European along with other eastern Mediterranean peoples probably had much more a genetic impact than the early Arab invaders. The descendants of the ancient egyptians did not disappear, rather they mixed with the newcomers over the centuries.

Now when it comes to the later Arab invasion starting in the 11th century that things get interesting.

Modern upper Egyptians are called Sa'idi.

The "Arab" tribes of Cyrenaica (Libya) claim to be descended from an ancestress named Sa'ada.

Now Arabic culture, at least after Islam does not have a rep for holding women in such high positions. But the Berbers are well known for having pride in female ancestresses, warriors and leaders.

Leo Africanus also mentions that the once purely Berber, powerful tribe of Leuata included Arabs in his day. They were located in the oases of Egypt's western desert.

So I wonder how many of the "Arab" tribes are really of Berber origin?

[city414]

Originally Posted by Neuling

Nah, that's not correct. Modern Egyptians are overwhelmingly the same ethnicity they have been ever since the stone age. The Arabization of North Africa was largely a political, religious and linguistic phenomenon.

your basically saying arabs dont really exist there, in the red theres more to it than that