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Old 06-30-2010, 06:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paquito Chocolatero View Post
No, Spain expelled all "moriscos" in the year 1608. Moriscos were Catholics of Muslim origin. Absolutely all. The largest expulsion in human history.

The expulsion of Jews of 1492 only contemplated Jews, not converse jews. Most converse stayed, though they were harassed by the Inquisition during centuries.

The presence of Sub Saharan or Berberisc DNA in Spain is barely testimonial, much less that in Italy or zones of France.

There were also a small pocket of blacks in Spain, around Cadiz and Seville, there were also expelled by the Inquisition some 300 years ago.

The area with less presence such DNA is Andalusia, the ancient Al Andalus. Every trace of Moorish population was removed and expelled and the area was settled by northern Spanish.

No, the Spanish population is not a mixed race and doesn't bear any resemblance with the American people, 90 percent or more of all Spanish have been living in Spain during the last 3.000 years.
The genetic signatures of people in Spain and Portugal provide new and explicit evidence of the mass conversions of Sephardic Jews and Muslims to Catholicism in the 15th and 16th centuries after Christian armies wrested Spain back from Muslim control, a team of geneticists reports.

Twenty percent of the population of the Iberian Peninsula has Sephardic Jewish ancestry and 11 percent have DNA reflecting Moorish ancestors, the geneticists have found. Historians have debated how many Jews converted and how many chose exile. “One wing grossly underestimates the number of conversions,” said Jane S. Gerber, an expert on Sephardic history at the City University of New York.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=936088 (broken link)


According to a widely publicited recent study (December 2008) published in the American Journal of Human Genetics, 19.8 percent of modern Spaniards have DNA reflecting Sephardic Jewish ancestry (compared to 10.6 percent having DNA reflecting Moorish ancestors with wide geographical variation, ranging from 2.5% in Catalonia to 21.7% in Northwest Castile).

In 2009, an autosomal study by Moorjani et al. that used about 500k-1.5 million SNPs estimated that the proportion of sub-Saharan African ancestry in Spain was 2.4% consistent with the historically known movement of individuals of North African ancestry into Spain, although it is possible that this estimate also reflects a wider range of mixture times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_people


Our results point to a higher recent Northwest African contribution in Iberia and Sicily in agreement with historical data. southern Italian regions known to have experienced long-term Arab presence also show an enrichment of Northwest African types.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008258a.html

Using methods that can infer admixture proportions in the absence of accurate ancestral populations, we estimated that the proportion of sub-Saharan African ancestry in Spain is 2.4 +/- 0.3%, in Tuscany 1.5 +/- 0.3%, and in Greece 1.9 +/- 0.7% (1 standard error)
http://www.ashg.org/2009meeting/abst...ext/f22007.htm

You say that the blacks were expelled during the Spanish inquistion, however Spain played an large part of the Slave trade and African slaves did go to Europe, especially Portugal. The Spanish did not have a problem with black people if they were converted Christian people, but if they were muslim then they would have been expelled. Anyway Spain during the slave trade granted the blacks that converted to Christianity more rights than the blacks from Anglo Saxon countries.

Last edited by other99; 06-30-2010 at 06:36 AM.. Reason: edit
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Old 07-01-2010, 11:05 AM
 
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No, Spanish blacks expelled by the Inquisition to Havana, Cuba (Negros curros) were Christian. Moorish were white, Spanish. Those blacks were servants for the rich, a very common habit in Europe, London was the city in Europe with most blacks.

At that time, blacks had a suntuary value, but the Inquisition expelled them because they didn't trust them. The Inquisition also tried to expell Gypsies, but only a few thousands were expelled to Istambul.

If those black had been non-Catholics, they would have been burned right away.

Influence of Northen African population in Spain, or Iberian population in North Africa, predates Muslim invasion. During the Roman times and up to the 7th Century, North Africa was a extremely prosperous region with many contacts with the Betica province.

The large value for the Sephardic influence is probably a wrong value, it probably correspond to Greco-Syrians from Siria and Middle East. The Greco-Syrians presence was extremely important in all the Western Roman Empire, in some cases almost a third of the population in parts of Spain, Italy, etc. If it weren't by Greco-Syrians, the empire would hace collapsed.
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Old 07-02-2010, 09:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
I assume Ashkenazi jews don't look Middle Eastern because they intermarried to such a great extent with Northern and Eastern Europeans.
Wrong assumption, CAVA1990.

A new study shows that Jews from Europe and the Middle East share the same genetic ancestry, and that they're from the Mideast:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/science/10jews.html
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Old 07-02-2010, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
Wrong assumption, CAVA1990.

A new study shows that Jews from Europe and the Middle East share the same genetic ancestry, and that they're from the Mideast:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/science/10jews.html
Doesn't seem to contradict me:

Jewish communities in Europe and the Middle East share many genes inherited from the ancestral Jewish population that lived in the Middle East some 3,000 years ago, even though each community also carries genes from other sources — usually the country in which it lives

They're basing this on common Y-dna, which runs from Father to son. I have a Y-dna (G2a-p15) haplotype that's relatively rare in Western Europe but is carried by a higher percentage of Turks and other Middle Easterners. However, I' look a lot more like a British R1b (a common haplogroup in the U.K.) than a Turk who shares my haplotype, largely because of all those "other sources".
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Old 07-03-2010, 03:48 AM
 
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Cava

But you must take into account that Jews were not the only Middle Easterners during the Roman Empire. There were millions of Greco-Syrians in Western Europe, probably sharing a similar genetic makeup with Jews.

Those Greco-Syrians became the administrators of the Empire, many rasing from their condition of slaves and libertos.

As opposed to Jews, they were Christians and the became assimilated. No mention of them during Low Middle Age.
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:18 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Doesn't seem to contradict me:

Jewish communities in Europe and the Middle East share many genes inherited from the ancestral Jewish population that lived in the Middle East some 3,000 years ago, even though each community also carries genes from other sources — usually the country in which it lives

They're basing this on common Y-dna, which runs from Father to son. I have a Y-dna (G2a-p15) haplotype that's relatively rare in Western Europe but is carried by a higher percentage of Turks and other Middle Easterners. However, I' look a lot more like a British R1b (a common haplogroup in the U.K.) than a Turk who shares my haplotype, largely because of all those "other sources".

actually recent studies suggest ashkenazic Jews have about 50-60% mid eastern ancestry, and the rest is largely mediterranean europe, esp Italy and southern France. Very little from eastern europe. which agrees with written sources indicating lots of conversion to Judaism during the Roman empire, esp before it officially converted to Christianity, and relatively little such conversion in Christian europe.

And of course quite a few Ashkenazic Jews look relatively dark.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:10 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
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I just wanted to add that not all Jews fall into the Sephard (Spain and the Iberian Peninsula) or Ashkenaz (Germany and Central Europe) branches. There are several others. For example there were the Cochin Jews of India, and also the Romaniot Jews of the Epirus province of northern Greece.

When I visited the southern Indian city of Kochi a few years ago, it was interesting that the local tourist authority made quite a big deal of that city's 2,000 year old Jewish heritage. Apparently a colony of Jews migrated there from Judea and also Alexandria in the first century BCE and the first century CE. There is a museum of Jewish history, and only two synagogues left (just one is still in use) in the "Jewtown" district of Kochi. The vast majority of Cochin Jews chose to resettle in Israel in 1948 ... very few remain in Kochi.

The Romaniot Jews represent a colony of Judean Jews who settled in Northern Greece in the first and second centuries BCE. A professor of Greek culture at New York University, Dr. Rae Dalven, was the foremost expert on the history of the Romaniots. This community was called that because Julius Caesar granted them Roman citizenship which was a big deal in those days. In the past few centuries they were found mostly in the provincial capital of Ioannina (sometimes spelled Yannina, or Janina) and the nearby port city of Preveza. They did not speak Ladino of the Sephardic Jews who migrated to Greece after 1492, but classical Greek. Many migrated to the United States in the late 19th Century, and they built their own synagogue in New York called Kahila Kadosha Janina. Those who remained in Greece were nearly all slaughtered by the Nazi Germans. Today there are only a few dozen left in Epirus.
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Westchester County, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
actually recent studies suggest ashkenazic Jews have about 50-60% mid eastern ancestry, and the rest is largely mediterranean europe, esp Italy and southern France. Very little from eastern europe. which agrees with written sources indicating lots of conversion to Judaism during the Roman empire, esp before it officially converted to Christianity, and relatively little such conversion in Christian europe.

And of course quite a few Ashkenazic Jews look relatively dark.
Consequently, many Ashkenazim (especially it seems from my personal observation, Hasidim, who I would think would be the least likely to have any "intermarriage" in them) also have blond hair, fair skin, and blue eyes. Very few Sephardim do (though not zero).

Many other Askenazim (both myself and my wife fit in this category) seem to have goodly numbers of both "relatively dark" and somewhat "Nordic looking" relatives in their family. My father had blond hair, blue eyes, and fair skin (he immigrated from southeast Poland in the 1930s and many of his Jewish friends actually nicknamed him "the little Pole" because of these features combined with his having lived there as opposed to being the child or grandchild of turn-of-the-century immigrants), but my mother is quite "Mediterranean looking" has been asked if she is Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Syrian, even on some occasions Puerto Rican or Cuban. Consequently, my sister is super-fair with reddish hair and I look more like my mom except for having blue eyes. My kids look like my dad (my wife has reddish-blond hair but dark eyes but similar family 'contrasts', her brothers and mom look very "Mediterranean", especially compared to her, her father somewhat fair and light brown hair).

My theory is the above is correct (studies show 10% of the population of the Roman Empire was Jewish, so I think that's when most of the "mixing" occurred, and that it's mostly Mediterranean), but that maybe 10% of the "gene component" is eastern Europe (I saw one study that put it at 12%, and that assuming less than 1% of each generation saw conversion over the last 2000 years). It doesn't have to be strictly from conversions/intermarriage either. There were rapes during the pogroms that produced pregnancies, etc.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:53 PM
 
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Some links for Crypto-Jews:

The Association of Crypto-Jews - Hispanic Sephardi Crypto Jews

Home
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
If Israel were populated instead mainly by Sephardic jews would her Arab neighbors still feel the same way about her?
Muslims and Arabs have no problem with Jews. They have a problem with Zionism. Jews were welcomed and treated kindly in the Muslim cities of Sarajevo and Salonika, after being expelled from Spain. (They, of course, were Sephardic.) If they had exhibited Zionist goals, they would not have been.

There was already a Jewish minority living in nearly all Muslim countries in 1947, in harmony with their Muslim neighbors. It was the presence of a Zionist state that engendered the friction.
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