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Old 01-01-2011, 12:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
I assume Ashkenazi jews don't look Middle Eastern because they intermarried to such a great extent with Northern and Eastern Europeans. Is part of the friction in the Middle East due to the fact that Israel is largely made up of Ashkenazis who look very foreign to the indigenous Arab populace versus the Sephardics who look more Middle Eastern? If Israel were populated instead mainly by Sephardic jews would her Arab neighbors still feel the same way about her?
Considering the history between the Arabs and the Kurds, Turks, and Persians, I doubt it would make much of a difference.

The Palestinian and Arab nationalist groups mostly play up the European angle to appeal to Western leftists and to draw comparisons to colonization. However, Middle Easterners have had no problems killing each other of ethnicity and religion for thousands of years.
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Old 01-01-2011, 01:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Muslims and Arabs have no problem with Jews. They have a problem with Zionism. Jews were welcomed and treated kindly in the Muslim cities of Sarajevo and Salonika, after being expelled from Spain. (They, of course, were Sephardic.) If they had exhibited Zionist goals, they would not have been.

There was already a Jewish minority living in nearly all Muslim countries in 1947, in harmony with their Muslim neighbors. It was the presence of a Zionist state that engendered the friction.
While Jews historically have been treated better under Muslim rule than under Christian rule, talk of living in harmony in Muslim lands was certainly not the case.

Throughout the Muslim world Jews were second class citizens in every sense of the word. They had to pay special taxes, they were occasionally slaughtered by both angry mobs and the military (in all fairness, that did not happen in all Muslim lands, merely most of them), regularly made scapegoats by the ruling classes, they forced to live in ghettos, in most Muslim lands they were not protected by the law to the same extent as Muslims (to the point where Jews were not allowed to defend themselves if attacked), and in most Muslim lands they were forced to wear distinctive clothing to identify them.

That all sounds a lot like...

Nah, too easy.
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Old 01-01-2011, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Westchester County, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
While Jews historically have been treated better under Muslim rule than under Christian rule, talk of living in harmony in Muslim lands was certainly not the case.

Throughout the Muslim world Jews were second class citizens in every sense of the word. They had to pay special taxes, they were occasionally slaughtered by both angry mobs and the military (in all fairness, that did not happen in all Muslim lands, merely most of them), regularly made scapegoats by the ruling classes, they forced to live in ghettos, in most Muslim lands they were not protected by the law to the same extent as Muslims (to the point where Jews were not allowed to defend themselves if attacked), and in most Muslim lands they were forced to wear distinctive clothing to identify them.

That all sounds a lot like...

Nah, too easy.
I was going to say the only place I can think of where it perhaps came somewhat close to "harmony" is pre-Inquisition Spain/Portugal.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
While Jews historically have been treated better under Muslim rule than under Christian rule, talk of living in harmony in Muslim lands was certainly not the case.

Throughout the Muslim world Jews were second class citizens in every sense of the word. They had to pay special taxes, they were occasionally slaughtered by both angry mobs and the military (in all fairness, that did not happen in all Muslim lands, merely most of them), regularly made scapegoats by the ruling classes, they forced to live in ghettos, in most Muslim lands they were not protected by the law to the same extent as Muslims (to the point where Jews were not allowed to defend themselves if attacked), and in most Muslim lands they were forced to wear distinctive clothing to identify them.

.
It is not uncommon for a few anecdotal incidents to be interpreted as commonplace. Just as the widespread belief in our own country, that in all Islamic lands, women are routinely stoned to death for the most trivial of social infractions. While at the same time, it is never reported that in most Islamic countries, female students outnumber males in high schools and universities.

It is true, though, that in places where there was a large sudden influx of escaping Jews, they were required to live in ghettoes, but that is not unusual in any culture where many refugees are accepted, including Haitians and Cubans in the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
However, Middle Easterners have had no problems killing each other of ethnicity and religion for thousands of years.
Over the past 500 years or so, there has been a great deal more harmony between the Islamic nations, than the Christian ones of Europe.

Last edited by jtur88; 01-01-2011 at 11:28 PM..
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post

Throughout the Muslim world Jews were second class citizens in every sense of the word. They had to pay special taxes, they were occasionally slaughtered by both angry mobs and the military (in all fairness, that did not happen in all Muslim lands, merely most of them), regularly made scapegoats by the ruling classes, they forced to live in ghettos, in most Muslim lands they were not protected by the law to the same extent as Muslims (to the point where Jews were not allowed to defend themselves if attacked), and in most Muslim lands they were forced to wear distinctive clothing to identify them.

That all sounds a lot like...
A lot like Israel, if you swap Muslims and Jews in your first paragraph. I bet that's what you were going to say, it'z, and right you would be for saying it, because I too do not believe our tax dollars should be supporting an apartheid government (especially one that sells our military technology to China and engages in false flag operations such as the Lavon Affair or the attack against the USS Liberty).

You're a good American, as Sean Hannity would say.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
It is not uncommon for a few anecdotal incidents to be interpreted as commonplace. Just as the widespread belief in our own country, that in all Islamic lands, women are routinely stoned to death for the most trivial of social infractions. While at the same time, it is never reported that in most Islamic countries, female students outnumber males in high schools and universities.

Not just a few, but hundreds of incidents, plus being a dhimmi meant being a second class citizen that had it worse than being black in apartheid South Africa.

Of course women are not routinely stoned to death in the majority of Islamic nations. However, it does happen in a few. And two of the countries where it does happen have spent billions trying to further their ultra-strict versions of Islam.

It is true, though, that in places where there was a large sudden influx of escaping Jews, they were required to live in ghettoes, but that is not unusual in any culture where many refugees are accepted, including Haitians and Cubans in the USA.

They always had to live in the ghetto and were not allowed to move out in the vast majority of cases. They also had to where distinctive clothing that identified them as Jews.

Over the past 500 years or so, there has been a great deal more harmony between the Islamic nations, than the Christian ones of Europe.

Because they possessed The One True Religion and preferred to attack infidels and I wouldn't exactly say it was a "great deal" more peaceful. Persians and Arabs have a centuries long mutual antagonism. Plus Kurds have been oppressed by Arabs and Turks (and occasionally Persians) for quite some time. Also, one of the reasons why Turkey has been traditionally allied with Israel is because Turks rarely got along with Arabs.

Things have changed and now the West is relatively peaceful while the Middle East is a backwards hole. Excluding Israel and Turkey.
My text is in bold.
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
While Jews historically have been treated better under Muslim rule than under Christian rule, talk of living in harmony in Muslim lands was certainly not the case.

Throughout the Muslim world Jews were second class citizens in every sense of the word. They had to pay special taxes, they were occasionally slaughtered by both angry mobs and the military (in all fairness, that did not happen in all Muslim lands, merely most of them), regularly made scapegoats by the ruling classes, they forced to live in ghettos, in most Muslim lands they were not protected by the law to the same extent as Muslims (to the point where Jews were not allowed to defend themselves if attacked), and in most Muslim lands they were forced to wear distinctive clothing to identify them.

That all sounds a lot like...

Nah, too easy.
But this was the norm for the time and it applied to Christians as well. In the Ottoman Empire clothing was regulated even among Muslims. Indeed, it could be said to apply to Christians in Christian lands where certain color and styles were restricted to different classes and trades and progroms happened throughout western Europe. In the Ottoman Empire, Jews flourished in ciites like Salonika. Under the Ottomans, Jews received preferencial treatment and were not subject like Christians to be drafted into the Janissaries. It was only under the Christians in Salonika that most reminants of Jewish life were destroyed (including paving over cemetaries) and that was before and after the Nazis.
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Old 01-02-2011, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
Of course women are not routinely stoned to death in the majority of Islamic nations. However, it does happen in a few. And two of the countries where it does happen have spent billions trying to further their ultra-strict versions of Islam.
Of course criminals are not routinely executed in the majority of westernized nations. However, it does happen in a few. And two of the countries where it does happen have spent trillions trying to further their ultra-strict versions of Deuteronomy.

Can you name those two Islamic nations that have spent billions of dollars attempting to further their version of Islam beyond their own borders? Of course, billions of dollars is a trivial amount of money these days. It's what the USA has spent every week in Iraq alone for nearly a decade trying to further some goofy dogma or other, as yet unexplained, but apparently related to the unfettered commercial distribution of Marlboros and Baywatch episodes.

Isn't it amazing how many threads on the History Forum quickly turn into dogmatic American "historians" gratuitously bashing people whose behavior has been so much like our own, but have been placed on the official American high-profile lists of "people we don't like".

Last edited by jtur88; 01-02-2011 at 09:38 AM..
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:28 AM
 
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Iran
Saudi Arabia
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Of course criminalsare not routinely executed in the majority of westernized nations. However, it does happen in a few. And two of the countries where it does happen have spenttrillions trying to further their ultra-strict versions of Deuteronomy.

Do you have a point? Because I don't see how people being executed for premeditated murder after a trial is comparable to women being stoned for adultery or being sentenced to flogging for wearing pants.

And I don't see to many Christian nations spending ANY money on furthering Christianity, never mind the Dark Ages version of it. I have yet to see Italy merge with the Vatican and spend billions on exporting an extremely anti-Semitic, expansionist, ultra-strict, warlike Catholicism.

Can you name those two Islamic nations that have spent billions of dollars attempting to further their version of Islam beyond their own borders? Of course, billions of dollars is a trivial amount of money these days. It's what the USA has spent every week in Iraq alone for nearly a decade trying to further some goofy dogma or other, as yet unexplained, but apparently related to the unfettered commercial distribution of Marlboros and Baywatch episodes.

Iran and Saudi Arabia.

And it is tens of billions and it is done in a very efficient manner. You do not seem to understand the importance of soft power and how it can effect the world. I would also like to point out that Saudi Arabia holds a certain prestige in the Muslim world since it is the guardian of Mecca and Medina, so it has a higher theological standing than most Muslim nations.

Saudi Arabia spends billions every year to build mosques around the world (including the US). It builds these mosques and supplies them with Korans printed in Saudi Arabia. These Korans usually have interjections referring to how a particular passage supports suicide bombing or other terrorist actions. For instance a passage in the Saudi printed versions of the Koran usually look like this:

"When it comes time for the believer to raise his sword (AK-47, pipe bombs, etc.) in battle against the unjust (Israel, Jews, Christians, Shia)..."

Saudi Arabia also staffs the mosques with Islamic fundamentalists who are put there to help further Wahhabist interpretations of Islam. Students who are particularly zealous and charismatic are selected to go to Saudi Arabia for further study (where they are indoctrinated further) to become Imams themselves and possibly be given their own mosque to operate.

That is one of the reasons behind the explosion of Fundamentalist Islam over the past few decades. The Saudis build mosques that teach Wahhabist Islam, they preach from Korans with Saudi added interjections, they give out free Wahhabi literature, and they sent select followers to Saudi Arabia for further training. In fact, a lot of liberal and moderate Imams have been complaining that they are having a hard time getting their point across because the extremist sects are being given extensive funding by Saudi Arabia and they cannot compete.

Isn't it amazing how many threads on the History Forum quickly turn into dogmatic American "historians" gratuitously bashing people whose behavior has been so much like our own, but have been placed on the official American high-profile lists of "people we don't like".

How has their behavior been much like our own? Are you referring to Europeans during the Dark Ages? In that case it has been much like our own.
My text is in bold.
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