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Old 01-05-2011, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuburnAL View Post
Wikipedia says at one time Ashkenazi Jews made up like 85-90% of the world's Jewish population. How did that happen when Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews had been around for so much longer?
If I had to answer the OP's question with one word it would be: Khazaria
I've read a lot of history, but it was only a few years ago that I learned that Khazaria was a major empire covering much of Ukraine and surrounding area from about 650 AD until 1020 AD. Many Jews migrated to Khazaria, where they were accepted and amalgamated into Khazarian society. In fact, the Khazars, formerly pagans, adopted Judaism, and a tolerant society was established. Later, Khazaria disappeared under the onslaught of the Mongols and many Jews and Khazars migrated to Hungary, Poland etc. A link with some Khazarian history follows:

An Introduction to the History of Khazaria
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
Saudi Arabia spends billions every year to build mosques around the world (including the US). It builds these mosques and supplies them with Korans printed in Saudi Arabia. .
US foreign policy, according to the Conservative Majority in America, is officially based on strictly Christian principles, and follows the precepts laid out in Deuteronomy and other OT books that command brutality and killing of enemies for trivial transgressions, as well as retributions in kind. We spent over a trillion already in Iraq alone to create a nation there that administers justice and social policy according to our Christian moral principles, killing maybe a million innocent Iraqi civilians in the process, with the laughable expectations that the Muslims would embrace it and consider us to be their modern saviours.

It's interesting that I spoke of the brutal, cavalier murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people on distant continents, and gratuitously lay their social institutions to rubble, using state of the art weaponry and overwhelming firepower against perfectly defenseless people. And what's your response? Well, the Saudi's are just as bad, they build places of quiet and peaceful worship, to serve the spiritual needs of Muslims abroad.. Wow.

Last edited by jtur88; 01-05-2011 at 10:21 PM..
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Old 01-06-2011, 05:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Walmsley View Post
If I had to answer the OP's question with one word it would be: Khazaria
I've read a lot of history, but it was only a few years ago that I learned that Khazaria was a major empire covering much of Ukraine and surrounding area from about 650 AD until 1020 AD. Many Jews migrated to Khazaria, where they were accepted and amalgamated into Khazarian society. In fact, the Khazars, formerly pagans, adopted Judaism, and a tolerant society was established. Later, Khazaria disappeared under the onslaught of the Mongols and many Jews and Khazars migrated to Hungary, Poland etc. A link with some Khazarian history follows:

An Introduction to the History of Khazaria

---------

John

DNA of Ashkenazins has no trace of Khazarian blood. Yes, they were the only Jewish state in that era, I remember having read that they sent protests to Castille to complain against attacks on "juderías" (Jewish ghettos).

The Khazarian hypothesis has been used frequently against Jewish people to make them appear as "converted Turks and not from the Holy Land".
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:32 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Over the past 500 years or so, there has been a great deal more harmony between the Islamic nations, than the Christian ones of Europe.
from 1500 or so to 1800 there WERENT a lot of muslim states in close proximity. The Ottoman empire rule turkey, the entire Middle east and even, nominally north africa. Its only independent muslim neighbor of any significance for much of that period was Persia, with whom the Ottomans warred regularly. In the early 19th cent, when Egypt became defacto independent, it also fought with the Ottomans.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:37 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Walmsley View Post
If I had to answer the OP's question with one word it would be: Khazaria
I've read a lot of history, but it was only a few years ago that I learned that Khazaria was a major empire covering much of Ukraine and surrounding area from about 650 AD until 1020 AD. Many Jews migrated to Khazaria, where they were accepted and amalgamated into Khazarian society. In fact, the Khazars, formerly pagans, adopted Judaism, and a tolerant society was established. Later, Khazaria disappeared under the onslaught of the Mongols and many Jews and Khazars migrated to Hungary, Poland etc. A link with some Khazarian history follows:

An Introduction to the History of Khazaria
The khazar elite converted, but it remained a multireligious society. The consensus such as it is, is that most of the common people did not convert. They were destroyed, not by the mongols, but a couple of centuries earlier by the russians, etc. AFAIK there is no actual evidence of them arriving in Hungary, just some cemeteries in West Ukraine, towards the edge of the Polish kingdom.

In any case, if the khazars HAD converted en masse, and they WERE the source of a large ashkenazic population, then we would see a large ashkenazic population from 1100 to 1400 in eastern europe. But we do not. In fact the rapid growth of the ashkenazic population was later, at a time when the sephardic population was stagnating.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:44 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
We spent over a trillion already in Iraq
whatever anyone things about US policy in Iraq, or Saudi mosques, its rather far afield from Jewish demographic history.

Its fairly clear that from 1000 or so to 1700 or so, Jews were generally, overall treated better in muslim lands than in Christian lands. Which is not inconsistent with what, by modern standards, was pretty poor treatment of Jews in muslim lands - in the best countries they were still second class citizens, and in quite a few times and places muslims managed to be intolerant in ways that were not that different from christian europe. We can quible as to how to quantify "quite a few". After 1700 conditions for Jews in europe improved rapidly, while they did not do in the muslim world, and in the 19th c improvements for Jews in the muslim world were to a considerable extent done in response to european pressure, and were resented by the most traditional elements of muslim society. As a result Jews came to be seen as the wards of western imperialists, and they (like christian communities) took advantage of commercial and educational opportunities available due to ties with the westerners - advantages that muslims resented. That, more than EITHER Zionism, OR alleged Koranic Jew hatred, resulted in Jew hatred in the Muslim world in the late 19th and early 20th century.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
US foreign policy, according to the Conservative Majority in America, is officially based on strictly Christian principles, and follows the precepts laid out in Deuteronomy and other OT books that command brutality and killing of enemies for trivial transgressions, as well as retributions in kind. We spent over a trillion already in Iraq alone to create a nation there that administers justice and social policy according to our Christian moral principles, killing maybe a million innocent Iraqi civilians in the process, with the laughable expectations that the Muslims would embrace it and consider us to be their modern saviours.
So you are stating that since some conservatives claim that the US foreign policy is Christian based that it is in fact Christian based despite no evidence (other than some aid given to Christian NGOs)? I have yet to see US foreign policy supporting Old Testament laws in other nations. I don't see the US offering aid (unlike Iran or Saudi Arabia) on condition that other nations follow Old Testament style practices. None.

Then you bring up the Iraq War and claim that it is officially a Christian war when it is not the case. In fact, the US military and both Bush and Obama Administrations have gone out of their way to try to discredit that knowing that it being seen as a war of religious conquest would alienate virtually the entire Muslim population of the planet.

I know you cannot possible be stupid enough to actually believe what you wrote. If you were, you would have probably tried to eat your computer by now, so I am just going to assume that you cannot come up with anything of substance and just resorting to making s--t up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
It's interesting that I spoke of the brutal, cavalier murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people on distant continents, and gratuitously lay their social institutions to rubble, using state of the art weaponry and overwhelming firepower against perfectly defenseless people. And what's your response? Well, the Saudi's are just as bad, they build places of quiet and peaceful worship, to serve the spiritual needs of Muslims abroad.. Wow.
Uh, did you actually read what I wrote? My point is that those places of "peaceful worship" are absolutely not. They are recruiting grounds for a variety of terrorist organizations and built with the intent of furthering Fundamentalist Islam. Watch the documentary Undercover Mosque to see how peaceful the sermons in Saudi funded mosques are.

The best lines include ones about hating "kuffars", laughing about beheadings in Iraq and Pakistan, and hating Jews.
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Old 01-06-2011, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
Watch the documentary Undercover Mosque to see how peaceful the sermons in Saudi funded mosques are.
Do you suppose a film crew could infiltrate Christian churches and find people talking about killing Muslims or going to war against Muslim countries?

There is one absolute about documentary production. You only make money if your documentary reinforces what a significant part of the audience already wants to believe. And whatever that is, you can always find it.

A huge majority of the US forces in the Gulf War, the No-Fly enforcement, and the Iraq War had earlier in their lives attended Christian church services, and received absolutely no moral guidance that would give them any qualms about completely destroying the nation of Iraq causing the premature or immediate death of literally millions of innocent civilians and even torturing some. I leave it to you to calculate the body count from plots hatched in British mosques.

(In all fairness, some US troops expressed remorse about the slaughter of thousands of retreating Iraqi troops after the cease fire in the Gulf War. Where's the documentary about that?)

I regret that this is off topic, but it is hard to allow such illogical conclusions to go unchallenged.

Last edited by jtur88; 01-06-2011 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:52 AM
 
594 posts, read 1,670,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón View Post
---------

John

DNA of Ashkenazins has no trace of Khazarian blood. Yes, they were the only Jewish state in that era, I remember having read that they sent protests to Castille to complain against attacks on "juderías" (Jewish ghettos).

The Khazarian hypothesis has been used frequently against Jewish people to make them appear as "converted Turks and not from the Holy Land".
Manolan,

Thanks for your mention of this point. Yes, I've heard of this genetic study. However, it asks us to believe that the Khazarian and Jewish peoples led mutually exclusive lives in what appears to have been a communally harmonious environment. The fact that the Khazars embraced Judaism is evidence of mutual acceptance and presumes a likely mixing of the two peoples. Unfortunately, little of Khazarian history has survived to give us a better picture. The following link adds some information:

Jews of Khazaria, brief history and other resources
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:21 AM
 
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No, no mixing whatsoever according to DNA studies. Probably a mass conversion inspired by the top hierarchy, just the same way Scandinavians or Norse people converted to Christianism, or just the same way Japanese almost became Catholics massively thanks to a handful of Jesuits that conviced War Lords.
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