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OK…my thread “When can blacks discuss slavery without being accused of victimhood or living in the past?” didn’t really provide any enlightenment, but rather only seem to fan the fires of rage. A lot of people within the thread wanted discussions that were relevant, useful, etc. So…a thought. How about we discuss the various problems many find within discussions about slavery.
For instance, on threads about slavery, there are those that say “Africans sold their own people and there was even black slaveholders in the US…how do you feel about them? Why is this never discussed?”
OK…so let’s have this discussion now…….How did blacks get to the New World? Are there documented differences in the way African slaves were treated versus how they were treated when they reached America? As it relates to slavery, should African slaveholders be held to the same levels of disdain that many feel about slaveholders in America? What about black slaveholders in the US? Do they get a pass?
BTW, this is posted in this forum because my “mother thread” is posted here, and I welcome all sides to this discussion/debate.
Please note, this thread is NOT about getting over slavery, the effects of slavery on contemporary blacks, Jim Crow, reparations, slavery in Africa today, etc. It’s ONLY about one particular aspect of the argument about slavery which is to discuss African slaveholders and the ways in which the practice differed from what happened when Africans reached America.
Though I expect this to be a lively discussion, I’m hoping we can all be civil in our discussions and learn a bit about some of the preconceptions that we have about black slavery in Africa and the US.
dont forget colonialism in africa after the slave trade was dismantled..
the same reason why the first africans in north america being indentured servants arent discussed, in order to find out you have to take a african american history course in college
For instance, on threads about slavery, there are those that say “Africans sold their own people and there was even black slaveholders in the US…how do you feel about them? Why is this never discussed?”
Because it is a pointless tu quoque that serves no purpose other than to assuage guilt that is already absurd.
For most of history, Europeans primarily enslaved other Europeans. Why is this never discussed either?
My guess? Because it contributes to the solving of not a single genuine contemporary problem.
OK…my thread “When can blacks discuss slavery without being accused of victimhood or living in the past?” didn’t really provide any enlightenment, but rather only seem to fan the fires of rage. A lot of people within the thread wanted discussions that were relevant, useful, etc. So…a thought. How about we discuss the various problems many find within discussions about slavery.
For instance, on threads about slavery, there are those that say “Africans sold their own people and there was even black slaveholders in the US…how do you feel about them? Why is this never discussed?”
OK…so let’s have this discussion now…….How did blacks get to the New World? Are there documented differences in the way African slaves were treated versus how they were treated when they reached America? As it relates to slavery, should African slaveholders be held to the same levels of disdain that many feel about slaveholders in America? What about black slaveholders in the US? Do they get a pass?
BTW, this is posted in this forum because my “mother thread” is posted here, and I welcome all sides to this discussion/debate.
Please note, this thread is NOT about getting over slavery, the effects of slavery on contemporary blacks, Jim Crow, reparations, slavery in Africa today, etc. It’s ONLY about one particular aspect of the argument about slavery which is to discuss African slaveholders and the ways in which the practice differed from what happened when Africans reached America.
Though I expect this to be a lively discussion, I’m hoping we can all be civil in our discussions and learn a bit about some of the preconceptions that we have about black slavery in Africa and the US.
Last year I read Edward Ball's book Slaves In The Family, in which the author tracked down descendants of his family's slaves. The Ball family was one of the earliest South Carolina rice planters, and they kept extensive records of their property, which included people.
He was able to trace one slave, an 11-year-old girl, back through cargo records to a specific place on the African coast, and he traveled there to talk to the people who live there now and are familiar with the history. There still exists a large round walled structure where the Africans kept the slaves they were selling until they were sold and shipped out. There were written records from the time, one of which I remember was an account of one of the people in charge of this holding prison, who said that some of the captives would become depressed and catatonic after time in captivity. He would tell them that they were going to be out of there soon, that they would be going to America to work so that they wouldn't just give up and die.
Ball also gives accounts of what happens on the other side of the Atlantic when they get to the U.S. One public record cites a captain who was fined for dumping his dead cargo too close to shore, and the bodies washed up on the shores of Charleston Harbor, to the great discomfort of the residents therein. There were laws about the limits from shore at which you could dump the people who didn't survive the Middle Passage.
So, there you have a couple of differences, neither of which are exactly uplifting.
People are capable of inhumanity no matter what color their skin or what side of the ocean they live on.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 07-15-2010 at 01:53 PM..
Here is an interesting paper on free Black slave owners in America. There are estimates that as high as 10,000 slaves were owned by Black slave owners. The issue here is not the fact that whites owned slaves, but that NOT ONLY whites owned slaves.
The paper also discusses West African slave owners.
Does this exonerate white slave owners? No, of course not. But it shows a clearer picture of this dark part of our history.
Slavery is against all human rights. It is cruel and inhuman to own another human being. But to deny the fact that Blacks were also, although to a lesser degree, culpable, is dishonest.
Domestic slavery was quite common in West Africa, although the Europeans organized the trade to a much greater magnitude and value. Free black slaveowners resided in states as north as New York and as far south as Florida, extending westward into Kentucky, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Missouri. According to the federal census of 1830, free blacks owned more than 10,000 slaves in Louisiana, Maryland, South Carolina, and Virginia. The majority of black slaveowners lived in Louisiana and planted sugar cane. The majority of black masters had not been slaves themselves. Yet, the ranks of black slave masters were diverse: some acquired slaves as soon as they had accumulated enough capital after their own freedom, others received slaves with their own freedom from their white masters, and others had been free for several generations.
OK…my thread “When can blacks discuss slavery without being accused of victimhood or living in the past?” didn’t really provide any enlightenment, but rather only seem to fan the fires of rage. A lot of people within the thread wanted discussions that were relevant, useful, etc. So…a thought. How about we discuss the various problems many find within discussions about slavery.
For instance, on threads about slavery, there are those that say “Africans sold their own people and there was even black slaveholders in the US…how do you feel about them? Why is this never discussed?”
OK…so let’s have this discussion now…….How did blacks get to the New World? Are there documented differences in the way African slaves were treated versus how they were treated when they reached America? As it relates to slavery, should African slaveholders be held to the same levels of disdain that many feel about slaveholders in America? What about black slaveholders in the US? Do they get a pass?
BTW, this is posted in this forum because my “mother thread” is posted here, and I welcome all sides to this discussion/debate.
Please note, this thread is NOT about getting over slavery, the effects of slavery on contemporary blacks, Jim Crow, reparations, slavery in Africa today, etc. It’s ONLY about one particular aspect of the argument about slavery which is to discuss African slaveholders and the ways in which the practice differed from what happened when Africans reached America.
Though I expect this to be a lively discussion, I’m hoping we can all be civil in our discussions and learn a bit about some of the preconceptions that we have about black slavery in Africa and the US.
Those African who sold other Africans into American slavery may have actually owned those people they sold. It might have been part of their culture hundreds of years ago. I don't know that it was, mind you, but it could have been. They may not have known any better, if you choose not to give them any benefit of the doubt. See, I kind of get the concept of "not knowing any better" and think of it as at least something of a legitimate excuse. Kind of a "hindsight is 20/20" point of view. I'm reminded of those old doctors and their practice of bleeding patients. We look at that as being nutty. But those guys back in the Olden Days really thought it was okay.
Okay, I'm thinking about putting in a blame scale of 1-10 with 10 being the greatest amount of blame, but I'll hold off on that for now.
Anyhow, I could go on and analyze slightly more recent slavery history, but I'll stop there seeing that my post is long enough and I'm not going to go beyond the subject as laid out.
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 07-15-2010 at 01:59 PM..
Reason: Deleted off-topic comments
Last year I read Edward Ball's book Slaves In The Family, in which the author tracked down descendants of his family's slaves. The Ball family was one of the earliest South Carolina rice planters, and they kept extensive records of their property, which included people.
He was able to trace one slave, an 11-year-old girl, back through cargo records to a specific place on the African coast, and he traveled there to talk to the people who live there now and are familiar with the history. There still exists a large round walled structure where the Africans kept the slaves they were selling until they were sold and shipped out. There were written records from the time, one of which I remember was an account of one of the people in charge of this holding prison, who said that some of the captives would become depressed and catatonic after time in captivity. He would tell them that they were going to be out of there soon, that they would be going to America to work so that they wouldn't just give up and die.
Ball also gives accounts of what happens on the other side of the Atlantic when they get to the U.S. One public record cites a captain who was fined for dumping his dead cargo too close to shore, and the bodies washed up on the shores of Charleston Harbor, to the great discomfort of the residents therein. There were laws about the limits from shore at which you could dump the people who didn't survive the Middle Passage.
So, there you have a couple of differences, neither of which are exactly uplifting.
This is something I've wondered about......what were slaves told about where they were going? Did they imagine that they were going somewhere to "work"? Did the life they lived as a slave in Africa "prepare" them for what they met when the reached the New World?
When Europeans arrived along the West African coast, slavery already existed on the continent. However, in his book The African Slave Trade, Basil Davidson points out that slavery in Africa and the brutal form of slavery that would develop in the Americas were vastly different. African slavery was more akin to European serfdom --the condition of most Europeans in the 15th century. In the Ashanti Kingdom of West Africa, for example, slaves could marry, own property and even own slaves. And slavery ended after a certain number of years of servitude. Most importantly, African slavery was never passed from one generation to another, and it lacked the racist notion that whites were masters and blacks were slaves.
I can only imagine that when the slaves reached America and saw the "real deal", emotions of shock and dismay are an understatement.
Does this perhaps "excuse" African slaveowners in some way because they didn't realize that the Europeans' plans for the African slaves were much harsher than what they would have allowed?
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